Religionists

[nailit]

Are terrified....
of disbelieving....

Are you not?

[Theland]

There's a brick wall in heaven, and all the Catholics live behind it.
They think they're the only ones there :-)

[Theland]

drmorgans - Try looking at the question and eliminating some of the possible answers.
1) There is a first cause for everything. (To me, this first cause is God, but for now, just an acknowledgement of a First Cause will suffice.)
2) Everything came from nothing, therefore the answer is to be found in the, ''something,'' that nothing produced, ie the natural universe.
3) Accepting that time itself began with the Big Bang, it is impossible to say, ''before, preexisting etc,'' but we can try to say that everything we know grew out of something that was not nothing. (Add to this list for both of our benefit.)

If I remove what is logically impossible, I am left with an undisputed, uncaused first cause, option number one.
What do you think?

[Theland]

Nailit, I suppose you are right.
Somebody who is absolutely convinced by the fact of God would be terrified of not believing, whereas an atheist, with no interest whatsoever in the concept of God, would obviously have no fear from that in which they did not believe.
For example, I have no fear of blue unicorns, because I do not believe in them and never had reason to.

[Mamyalynne]

//There's a brick wall in heaven, and all the Catholics live behind it.//

You'll be surprised what I can throw over a wall - keep your eyes peeled up there ;-)

[Theland]

Mamya -You've been removing bricks and peeping through ;-)

[Mamyalynne]

The pointing does need redoing.

[Theland]

'' Oi! Put that brick back! Can't you read? It says, '' No Peeping.''

[mibn2cweus]

That would explain how she knew you had a bed bath.

[Theland]

Well I do have a body to die for :-)
In fact its half dead already :-)

(She fancies me y'know?)

[Theland]

Well I do have a body to die for :-)
In fact its half dead already :-)

(She fancies me y'know?)

[naomi24]

Theland, //If I remove what is logically impossible, I am left with an undisputed, uncaused first cause//

You can’t say with any certainty that anything unknown was ‘uncaused’ - and you certainly can’t say with any certainty that what you claim to be ‘uncaused’ is known to you. All you can do is speculate - which is what you’re doing.

[Theland]

No a bit more than speculate. Removing some from inquiries and seeing what is, logically, left.

[naomi24]

You're skipping logic though. There's no logic in believing something for which there is not a jot of evidence. As I said, that is simply speculation.

[Theland]

Naomi - the First Cause is precisely that - a First Cause.
It only takes logic and reason to see it.

[naomi24]

Conceding that you don't know what that first cause is takes logic and reason. There is no logic or reason in insisting you know the answers when you don't.... and you don't.

[pixie374]

Theland, you talk constantly about a "first cause" more than anyone else. But you also argue against it more than anyone else, by suggesting God is "just there".
Why can the most complex being in the universe, who can create everything from nothing.... just exist without a cause. But nothing else can?

[Theland]

Everything you know of in this universe has a prior cause.
Agreed?
Therefore the universe has a prior cause.
Logically, it could not have come from nothing in spite of what Krause and Hawking affirm.

[naomi24]

Theland, I really wish you'd stop using works like 'logic' and 'rationality' because none of what you promote has any basis in either.

[pixie374]

//Everything you know of in this universe has a prior cause.
Agreed?//

Not that I know of- I don't know where the universe came from for a start. I think we've had this conversation before. But you can't argue on the one hand that everything has a "prior cause".... except god... which would be far more complex. What is the prior cause for a god? In logical terms...

[drmorgans]

Theland - "there is a first cause" for you and that is god. Why does there have to be a "first cause". For many sceptics that is a jump too far.

"Everything came from nothing" - does it? There is a "cyclic" Big Bang Theory, in which the universe is continually expanding and contracting.