Evolution or Creation???

[happyred]

that is the question......!

[Puddintane]

To mibn 2 cweus
Your first statement, evolution or creation of what? We are talking about is there a God who created man or did man evolve from an organism from water? If the later is true and all life began this way. Why did the evolution process stop all other creatures from developing past their present state? Why did man and only man develope as the only superior creature on earth? Your theories and educated statements only appease the intellect. You seem to disregard the obvious answer. When you and others dig deep into this subject the only thing you really find is the hole you have created and don't look upward to see the light.

[mibn2cweus]

Understanding and accepting the nature of the present is the foundation from which learning about the past and considering what might be possible in the future must be built. A lack of knowledge of the why or the how has no influence on the nature of what is. Beliefs do not create or otherwise alter the fabric of reality. Change requires physical action and purposeful and meaningful change for the better requires actions based on an understanding of consequences (the principles governing the law of cause and effect) and what consequences are desirable (what promotes the existence and well-being of an entity possessing the potential ability to do so).

A moth is instinctually attracted to the light by its evolutionary programming and has no choice in whether to do so even if this should lead it to burn in the fire that produced it. This is what separates us from all other living things, our potential to distinguish between the attributes that are of value to us and those that can do us harm, the ability to acquire knowledge and the alternatives this presents to us. To disregarding the intellect is to ignore the noble pursuit of knowledge that is the defining attribute of humankind. This is what brought us out of the trees and taught us to use the lumber to build homes and to refine the contents of the caves we once dug to protect ourselves from the rages of the gods so that we could build the computer you use to denigrate humanities quest for understanding.

[Puddintane]

to mibn2cweus
Thank you for your reply, but you did not offer any answers, only more book stuff. Learning and knowledge is very important and always will be. Your statement of the nature of what is, does not rule out god's creations. Why it is offers the explaination of God's existance. Again I ask you the question. WHY did evolution stop all other creatures from developing past their present state. WHY is man superior. Is it because our God wanted it that way? Why do we have the intellect do do the things yhat you have described? The moth is a good example of instinct and that is all creatures have to survive. WHY have they stopped there?
WHY has man developed and strived to develope as far as they have? Maybe God wanted it that way. You give no reasoning power to anything, only what you believe to be the power of knowledge. Why is it so important for you to try to disasemble God's work and strive to try to prove mans knowledge is far superior? We will never have all the answers to everything because we are far inferior to God. Our quest to try to find answers is also created by God. Our God wanted all creatures as they are and wanted man where he is. Knowledge can never decide on the answers.
Believing is knowing the answer.

Isen't evolution the taking away of body parts that are not needed? like legs from snakes, sight from deep sea fish, legs from some species of ocean mammals, ect. When people think of evolution it's not an organism being evolved to grow arms and legs.

[mibn2cweus]

Puddintane, I am not telling you or even asking you, or God, to believe anything. That�s a job for the God Squad. What you choose to believe is a choice only you can make for yourself. It is the consequences of our actions based on what we choose to believe for which we must be prepared to be judged and for which we must accept responsibility. For this reason we should choose carefully what we choose to believe.

I can not provide answers to every question that you seek answers for. Nor can I do your thinking for you. I encourage you to continue your pursuit for the answers you seek with help from those able to provide you with the knowledge necessary for you to draw a reasonable conclusion. This is all I or anyone else can do to help you. Knowledge offered freely still demands the price of understanding for it to be of value. We all determine for ourselves whether what anyone says merits belief by finding, where this is possible, its relationship to your own experience with and perception of reality. Throughout the learning process you must be willing to accept that all the answers may not be immediately forthcoming and that this does not exempt us from the need to gather the necessary knowledge before we can come to a reasonable conclusion about the facts whatever they may prove to be. Sorry, that�s just the way it is.

I have explained how I came to the conclusion that the existence of a universal creator denies the causal sequence required for the acquisition of the knowledge necessary to be creative. Attempting to circumvent this essential process by presuming the existence of such an entity defies reason, is an affront to reason and negates the purpose of attempting to provide reasons, yours mine or anyone else�s.

cont. . .

[mibn2cweus]

Assuming the existence of an X-factor and calling this �God� only adds an impenetrable layer of obfuscation to the process of finding any explanations for the existence of ourselves and the world we live in and can not be of any substantive use for the purpose of learning to live in this world with its inescapable consequences, a challenge that only reason has proved to have the potential to live up to.

Your assessment of the process of evolution indicates as much a lack of available knowledge as a disassociated jumble of misinformation, the source of which I do not care to speculate. Evolution is how species arrived at their present state and there is no �why�. Your insistence that evolution be readily discernable in a snap shot of time or else can not and is not taking place gives me pause to believe that you have a serious desire to consider whether it may have ever happened at all. At any rate you need to reconsider your source for obtaining facts even if this means finding those who do not share an ulterior motive, who seek the truth objectively without preconceived notions.

When you ask a �why� question you must be willing to accept that such a question implies a reason and the primary reason for anything is so that those able to ask such questions find the means to live another day and in so doing obtain any hope of discovering the answer.

When you face a crossroad with two signs, one reading �reason required� the other �faith permitted� only you can choose which path to take. Choosing the easy way may not reveal what lies around the next bend but these two paths do not meet again. I can only hope for your sake that you are able to find your way back to that intersection but if you do manage perhaps you will have learned the virtue of patience with acquiring knowledge and be better able to discern those who�s desire is to lead you astray. Thank You for reminding me why I chose the path I travel.

[Puddintane]

mibn2cweus
I cannot believe you assume I'm looking or searching for answers. Everything you say is based on theroy and speculation based on assumptions. YOU are the one who has diligently pursued answers. You have admitted that your answers are still forthcoming. We both know that really means never ending and never knowing the conclusion. Yet that seems to satisty you, but I don't understand why. Answers always forthcoming and never ending conclusions. Is that the path you have chosen to travel? Secular people have chosen that path since the beginning of time. Their theories are the same as yours. No better no worse. I have chosen beliefs and thier never has been or will be any reason to doubt. Unlike your belief which is forever changing with new " knowledge" and always will be. I certainly do not seek answers from you. I'm only trying to open your closed mind to see their are other options. You are certainly a very knowledgable person but with very little wisdom. I truly believe that is what seperates you and me. Everything cannot be proven by knowledge and intellect. If you disagree with that statement, then prove to yourself, your way, that your spouse, children, siblings, Mother or Father love you. Will your loving, faithful, best friend, you dog ever bite you? No ? Prove it with intellect and knowledge. Or is there some things even YOU believe in without knowledgeable proof ?

[mibn2cweus]

Puddintane, If someone asks a question, I�ve found it reasonable to assume they are seeking an answer, even if the answer that answers the question they asked is not the answer they seek. However everything I present for consideration is written as much for anyone else who may have an interest LOL (Happyred, if you�ve had about enough of this just tell me to get lost), as it is for you and if it is not helpful then kindly disregard. Assumption is not invariably beyond reason when what stands to be gained justifies the risk and one is aware of the possible consequences and prepared to pay for them. I do not pretend to have all the answers but the answers I do have provide me with a degree of certainty I have earned by acquiring the knowledge required to justify that certainty.

Knowledge is only as good as the foundation upon which it rests and the integrity of the logical structure that supports it. Newly acquired knowledge does not negate previous knowledge that rests on a properly laid foundation, it only serves to integrate what was previously known and adds to the structure to which more knowledge can be properly assimilated.

The love that others demonstrate through their compassion towards children or animals, their regard for the value of life and their respect for reason, whether it be directed towards me or someone else, is the only proof I require and I return love to those I find worthy as payment due. I may not always be right when I extend my love and respect to another, sometimes a complete stranger, but it is a risk I am prepared to take and in many cases a justified risk graciously rewarded.

cont . . .

[mibn2cweus]

Wisdom is a province of knowledge that is acquired by the experienced traveler who has discovered the importance of questioning and examining the validity of their beliefs. A wise person has developed the skills to discern and acknowledge when they are wrong, aware of the obligation of personal responsibility and has witnessed the inescapable consequences of evading the reality of the limitations imposed by un-acquired knowledge. Wisdom is the hallmark of one who�s knowledge has evolved to a stage where they realise that it is much more important to learn what is real than to be believed by those who do not understand, that castles built of sand do not withstand the turning tides of inevitability, that the billowing face of God they imagined in the clouds is only an illusion of vapors and mists created within the vacuity of a pretentious mind, that the thundering roar of Thor the reverberates throughout the empty corridors of unsupported beliefs can only be silenced by listening to the quite whispers of the voice of reason.

If my mind appears closed to you perhaps you lack the key to open the door. I value the contents of my mind and have a great appreciation for the treasures I have amassed. But I am not greedy with my accumulated wealth, much of which I inherited from others. I enjoy sharing with those who have discovered they also possess the same key; my mind is open to reason. And please examine the soles of your boots before you enter. I have grown weary of wading through mounds of bovine wastes in search of their reported treasures and prefer instead to explore more plausible pastures.

[kwicky]

Maybe we are all looking at this question the wrong way round. Instead of looking for answers to how we are created just turn the question on its head. We exist therefore we are! No amount of evolution starting from a single celled organism would get us here. No, it is necessary to start from the top down, accept we were created and put forward arguments to suggest it could not have been otherwise.

[Puddintane]

kwicky
Well said. We must accept, there will always be people who put their whole life in their own personal hands. Thinking they have enough knowledge to reason their own destiny. I cannot imagin how anyone could say I have it all figured out to my satisfaction and need no one or nothing else to base my existance on.

[Puddintane]

mibn2cweus
Anything I have asked of you, is because I could not believe the statements you have made. I also understand, from what you have said, that you judge whether to except information or disregard it according to if it fits your closed mind assunptions. You have admitted you do not need knowledge to prove love. You need only to accept it, which is believing and having faith in that person or creature. That love and respect you, give to people that may, give you a gracious reward you referred to then builds more belief and faith in that person, which may keep building. All this without any knowledge from outside sources? The only castles built on sand are the ones made by man. As you must know none have survived the test of time nor will they ever. I accept the unchanging, everlasting God that can never be denied. The same today as ever was and ever will be.The consequences of your assumptions are devastating and deadly to youself and to anyone you may influence. My intentions are not to be your key to any door, but to help other people see beyond your closed minded theories.
Happy Easter

[mibn2cweus]

Kwicky, You have described the reverse engineering process of religious ideology precisely. Starting with an assumption which has no basis for belief you then create evidence to support it and dismiss out of hand any existing evidence to the contrary. You can not build a skyscraper by floating the top floor in mid air then add the supporting structure with wishful thinking. Your fallacious logic is quite revealing by virtue of its total absence.

Puddintane, That you stepped eagerly onto kwicky-builts bovine rationalization speaks volumes about your ideology as well.

Responsibility for ones own life and the consequences of their actions is not a choice, the refusal to acknowledge and accept that responsibility notwithstanding. You �cannot imagin how anyone could say I have it all figured out to my satisfaction and need no one or nothing else to base my existance on� yet this is exactly what you are have done consistently and are offering as your only �proof�, excepting that you fudge the figures to fit your beliefs and need the acknowledgement of someone else equally as oblivious to reason to rationalise your groundless beliefs. You have repeatedly attributed your own lack of logical structure to twist the meaning of and misrepresent what I have said thereby demonstrating the you have no logic of your own and therefore must resort to attempting to pervert the logic of others. Reasoning requires more than a cut and paste out of context mentality.

cont. . .

[mibn2cweus]

I evaluate what is offered as �information� based on whether is corresponds to reality. You haven�t offered any to be disregarded. How convenient for you. I stated clearly what constitutes proof of love and how I know it when I see it. I also acknowledge where love is found to be lacking. Faith is not required where evidence is available and without evidence knowledge is impossible.

Belief in God is a castle created without even the pretense of a foundation. Your insistence on believing as you do offering no other reason than that you have none proves that your beliefs are without merit and that only someone who has already chosen to be less than human by dispensing with the use of their mind altogether would believe you. How could I or anyone else be a threat to those who have chosen self-imposed brain death and are therefore impervious to reason? You accuse me of having a closed mind because I an open to reason but repulsed by abject absurdity. Again your unfounded and misconstrued beliefs are without merit.

[Puddintane]

mibn2cweus
You say you evaluate information as it relates to reality. You have evaluated and comcluded your OWN reality. I believe you are out of touch. You so carefully choose your words and pick apart everyone elses. I totally understand what kwicky said, but you twisted his words to fit your twisted thinking. Your proof is only what you say is proof and not based on any end results, only theories. Do you really think your carefully thought out wording really puts you at a higher level? You act like your trying to communicate with an illiterate. Maybe I don't use the proper words in the context they should be used, but your showing your all knowing attitude as an expert in language. You consistantly read things into what I have written as not being stated correctly. Grow up because you know EXACTLY what I mean. You act like a child arguing with a sibling, about how they said something. You show your closed mindedness everytime you say God and God's creation has no foundation. Maybe you have not looked in the right places, or choose not to. Have you ever examined that possibility, if not then you are closed minded. If you refuse to go to a web site I will furnish you, again your closed minded. www.creationministries.org/resources.asp

You can have knowledge without wisdom, but with wisdom comes knowledge.

[mibn2cweus]

Puddintane, Again you have selectively minced my words in an attempt to pervert their meaning and to misrepresent what I have said. I do not need to ask you why you consistently find this necessary rather than request a further clarification of what I have said. Obscurity is the smoke screen of the deceitful.

Your accusation that I am behaving like a child bounces off of me and sticks to you, except that I find children to be fountains of wisdom compared to many of their adult counterparts.

As for seeking God, I chased a rainbow once having heard a pot of gold lay waiting at its end. I have since learned to consider the potential validity of such claims before mindlessly pursuing them to the ends of the Earth. I�ve already explained God�s lack of qualifications for engaging in such pursuits. I choose not to create my own reality. Reality is its own creator and there is no reason to dissect it into two separate and completely unrelated entities. The only thing such an attempt provides is the separation of ones own mind from reality.

Evolution in the simplest of terms means change and can be observed all around us although not always in terms of an improvement, the growth in our knowledge base provided by legitimate science being a notable exception. There will always be holes to dig in what knowledge we have so far been able to obtain but this is no reason to dispense with what knowledge we do have to justify the belief in a created fantasy.

[Puddintane]

mibn2cweus
You reinforce your closed minded attitude every time you talk. The no response things you have clearly avoided are glaring. Bounces off me and sticks to you. WOW that sure is a childish remark. Looking for God is like chasing rainbows? It's obvious that you never have looked for God and never will. Thats to bad. You must have a very lonely, sad and secluded life. Not much joy there, only encyclopedies, dictionaries, numbers and probably not many friends. You must be a very unhappy person. You don't have to respond to the last couple of things, because I know you will deny them even though there obvious. Children surely do say brilliant things sometimes and much can be learned from them. I have never heard a child talk about evolution. I wonder why? You mentioned about two seperate entities. They are not but only in your closed mind they are. Your refusal to look anywhere else to compare ideas is surely a self righteous and closed minded attitude. You have created a fantasy that is beyond belief. It's a fantasy in yourself. Self that's beyond any recognition of others thoughts . A broken record thats repeats it's own sound over and over again. REFUSING to think there can be other sounds.

I have looked at both sides. Have you ?????

[mibn2cweus]

How long am I required to stare up the rear of reality for evidence of "the other side" before I am deemed to be of an "open mind"?

How does the quantity of ones �friendships� determine the quality of their convictions?

I base my evaluation of another�s friendship not on whether they agree or disagree with what I say but on their willingness to listen and consider the potential truth of what I say as I likewise consider what they have to say. There is much we can learn from others who share the capacity to be understood but knowledge is not acquired by simply taking another�s word for it or by believing and disregarding what is already known.

I know who my friends are and I know why. My friends have an interest in the friendship I offer because they value themselves enough to demand the evidence that knowledge requires and this is what I offer them instead of dictating what they should or should not believe and accusing them of having a closed mind if they disagree.

I not only welcome criticism but admire and relish it when it is accompanied with reasons that enable me to understand where I am wrong and how to improve. This helps me to grow as a person and that�s what friends are for. But for what ever reason or lack of reason someone chooses not to be my friend that is their choice and I respect that, even if I have lost respect for the quality of their judgment.

I might be wrong but I believe I�ve done all the good I can reasonably be expected to do in this thread lol and along with being accused of redundancy I have decided to leave it before I am accused of being more stubbornly �closed minded� than you. Thank you for your participation.

[mibn2cweus]

. . . almost forgot. Thanks happyred for being such a gracious host!

[Puddintane]

mibn2cweus
I would never and have never dictated to you or anyone else what they should believe. I have only suggested that you look at both sides and then choose. What kept me corresponding was the fact of your stubbornness and closed minded attitude. Everyone and anyone should investigate all avenues, especially on somethig of such great importance. To accept one side and say they don't need to look further, is maybe cause their afraid of what they may find. A second opinion should always be checked out and refusal to, is being closed minded. Do not evaluate how other people believe and say that's not for me. Check it out for yourself. Thanks to all who have listened and to you mibn2cweus even though you have not listened. Good Luck.