If Jesus was a Jew...

[jollygreen]

And Christians believe this (because it says so in the bible), why aren't all Christians Jewish?

Naive question maybe but I really don't know the answer. Is it just because the men don't want to be circumcised? or do you all like your pork sausages? ;-)

[Romeo]

The Jews worship the God of Abraham and Moses, as do Christians. But Christians believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the leader of God's people. THe Jews reject this, because they believe the Messiah is still to come. The Old Testament (the pre-Christian bit of the Bible) foretells of a leader to come, but the Jews were expecting a warrior king who would lead the nation to a new glory, not a peaceful Christ who would preach to Gentiles.

Circumcision is laid down in the Old Testament, when God tells Abraham to circumcise himself and to tell all Jewish men to do likewise as a sign that they follow God. It was St Paul in the New Testament (the bit of the Bible after Christ) who said that physical circumcision is not necessary to show loyalty to God. Instead he spoke of spiritual circumcision, i. e. getting rid of the unwanted part of the soul rather than of the body.

[Lonnie]

Your correct when you say that Jesus was a Jew, he was born, lived and died as a Jew, Christianity wasn't even thought of in his time.

For the begginings of Christianity, you have to look at Saul of Tarsus/St Paul, who opened Judaism up to outsiders/Gentiles, eg, by saying that it is now permissible to eat non Kosher foods, and not having to be Circumcised.

The split came because the Rabbinate refused to accept this teaching, and of course, not recognising Jesus as the Messiah.

I don't have time now to go more into this, but there is quite a bit more, if Clanad, Cetti or Theland are around, maybe they will expound on this.

[jollygreen]

Thanks chaps, clears it up a bit. I've always wondered. I was brought up a christian and (aged about 9 I think) once asked my (very devout) father but he couldn't answer it !

[Theland]

In a sense, Christians ARE Jewish.
The Bible puts it like this. Consider Gods' chosen people, the Israelites, as an olive tree. Those that reject the Messiah, Jesus, are like branches of the tree that are cut out. Gentiles who accept Christ as the Messiah, are like branches of wild olives that have been grafted into the original tree, sustaining their spiritual nourishment from the root, which is God.
So, in that sense, we are Jewish, belongine to Gods' family, the Body of Christ.

[naomi24]

Morning Theland, old bean - or should I say old olive?!! A question. If the Jews are god's chosen people, but now apparently the Christians have the right idea in that the only way to god is through Jesus, where does that leave the Jews? Are they doomed because they don't follow Jesus, and if so, does that mean that an untrustworthy god has reneged on his promise to them?

[Theland]

Hello Naomi - As far as I am aware, Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life." That's pretty clear cut, and He is addressing me as an individual, as my conscience tells me to follow His teaching.
So, that leaves Jews out of it. Or does it? If God sees His chosen people following the scriptures in all good conscience, then that is a relationship between Him and them, and if after hearing the gospel of Christ, and rejecting what their consciences tell them, well, that is for God to judge.

[naomi24]

Theland, Jesus may well have said that, but he also told his followers to keep the law, by which I assume he meant Jewish law. Jesus was a Jew and he didn't tell us to believe what the Christian church would have us believe - none of that was even thought of when Jesus lived - so perhaps when he said "I am the way" etc, he meant quite simply that we should follow his teaching, which in itself wasn't such a bad thing, until men made a dogs dinner of it.

Addtionally it seems that god's convenant with the Jews flew out of the window when Christianity reared its head. How can that be justified? According to that, god in his infinite wisdom, didn't make the ground rules clear in the beginning, but changed the criteria somewhere along the way, and suddenly his promise to the Jews was no longer valid.

Jollygreen, an excellent question, and just as I've always believed. Christianity shouldn't exist.

[naomi24]

Correction: not as I've always believed. I used to be a Christian - until I recovered my senses and learned to think logically.

[Lonnie]

jollygreen, as naomi says, its an excellent question.

naomi and Theland, please keep this debate going, can't tell you how much i'm enjoying it.

[jollygreen]

Thanks, it's always puzzled me.

On what authority did Saul of Tarsus say it was ok to eat non kosher meat and that it was permissable for men to not be circumsized? On what basis was the decision made?


I'm not trying to be controversial or delibarately obtuse, I'm not bating Christians either, I'm genuinely interested.

[naomi24]

As far as I know, Jollygreen, on his own authority. He did tend to make it up as he went along. He was the celebrity chef who cooked the original dog's dinner.

Hi Lonnie - what's this I hear? Here they go again? Well, it's not all gloom and doom. We do have a quick 'Knees up Mother Brown' with Luna in between arguments, don't we Theland?

[Lonnie]

lol on that naomi.

jollygreen, naomi is basically correct in what she says, but to go a bit further, if you know your Biblical history, and Sauls conversion, I think he got a touch of Sunstroke, but be that as it may, it was the only way to get new recruits to the new religion, as by that time, Judaism was almost a closed book to non Jews.

[naomi24]

Sorry, Lonnie, you're absolutely right. I should have added that. Loosen the rules to expand the membership - especially within a community to whom those rules were completely alien.

[luna-tic]

Ee-I-ee-I-ee-I-Oh!
Knees up! Knees up!
Don't Get The Breeze up
Knees up Mother Brown

[Theland]

Further information about this is in the book of Romans in the New Testament. No, I'm not trying to con you into reading the Bible, but to ask you to weigh up for yourself what it says regarding living under the law, compared to living under grace.
It's worth a go, I promise you.

[Theland]

Luna - Why aren't you in work? Haven't thrown a sickie in have you?

[luna-tic]

Hi Theland Old Chap
I've only been working at the school just over a month and they said, 'Take a week off '.
Now from that offer I gathered they think I'm just dandy at the job and deserve a well earned rest or they think I'm useless and not worthy to stay.......or maybe it's the fact that I'm constantly singing down the corridors and the kids can't concentrate enough on their studies.
So aside from all that I thought I'd see what was happening on here.

[naomi24]

Oh Theland, that's a cop out. Reading it again will only confirm our suspicions that this promise of so called 'grace' is a total invention. It seems to me that this man, who had no first hand experience of Jesus, highjacked and contorted his teaching, his purpose and his history, and in doing so also highjacked the god of the Jews, theoretically breaking the covenant they had with him.

[jollygreen]

Theland, I've actually read most, if not all, of the bible...

I came to the conclusion that most of the answers I was looking for must have been in the bits I didn't read... ;-)

Thanks for the responses folks, I'm interested to hear all the views...

[Theland]

Naomi - Ever wondered WHY Paul would stoop to such deception? And he must have been awfully clever to coordinate it all. Your assertion is breathtaking. Think about it. What was in it for him, if it was all a lie? Or was he just hooked on getting beaten and thrown into prison?