Your punishment, and God.

[Lonnie]

I'm having a field day here at the moment,

http://www3.hants.gov.uk/museum/curtis-museum/ alton-history/fanny-adams.htm

If the above story was to happen today, in Britain, (non Brits please answer also), what punishment do you reckon he'd get?,

What, if you had the power, would you recomend, and for people of the religious persuasion, where would God fit into it?.

Many thanks.

[keyplus90]

Killer is a killer. No sane or insane. That is what I am trying to say this sane, insane phenomena is only excuse. Of course you may end up killing someone why defending yourself, your family or your property. Sometime people can prove it sometime you can not. I think if the justice system is just then more than never they should be able to find out.

However there are people who do have behaviour problems, mentally instable or so on. And I am sure that does not happen over night. Society should be able to do something about that to help him before that persona kills someone. Again if he killed because he had some sort of mental disability or he had some sort of mental sickness (eg, serial killers) then would you class them as someone who is mentally retarded?

[monkeyeyes]

If someone has a pre-existing mental health condition that renders him/her differently sane to the majority of the rest of the population and commits a murder or other horrible crime, keyplus, what then ?

Forget your comments 'society should............' because Society can't.... or doesn't always.......... manage to intervene.

Your limited knowledge regarding mental health issues is revealing itself............

[keyplus90]

Then he is a murderer. Call sane or insane.

Of course my knowledge about mental health issues is very limited, because I have never been there. Sound like you have your own personal experiences.

I have never seen nor heard anyone running towards electric chair because he or she does not have the ability to understand what it is.

[keyplus90]

Or else you tell me what would you do to the person you described there?
Lets see your knowledge about the realities of the life and how would you deal with it.

[monkeyeyes]

A person in that scenario may be classed as insane and therefore not responsible for his/her actions. This is not some sort of recent phenomena and there are robust medical and legal tests to establish the amount of culpability which can be attached to any offender claiming such an impairment of their mind...............these have been around for the best part of 200 years.

The majority of people suffering from 'mental impairment' are a greater danger to themselves than they are to the public at large.

I'm not certain of the statistics, however, I should imagine 'bad killers' far out-number 'mad killers'..........

[terambulan]

I would support a cultural trip to the Ganges.....where he could be thrown in to be gobbled by the gigantic carniverous cat fish!

[Lonnie]

Would you al mind if I brought this link up to date?.

The Killer of young Rhys Jones, (there are millions of examples I could use), a pre-planned murder, I know he was killed by mistake, but the lad had gone out intentiolly to kill someone, and he was sane,

In both these cases, innocent children were murdered, and if there was ever a case for God (if he's there) to intervene, this was the time, lets face it, in the writings of all three Monothesic Religions, God intervened personally, many times.

[naomi24]

The biblical God has a fail-safe get-out clause. According to his followers he's responsible for everything good in this world, but not responsible for anything bad, because he gave us free will, so it's all our fault. In the case of murder, what happens to the free will of the victim? He/she doesn't have any when it comes to a murderer utlising his free will - but that's ok because God moves in mysterious ways - and we must never question his methods or reasons. (Wonder why? Could it be because we would find fault in him?).

Similarly, in the book I'm currently reading, the author puts the case for a mother watching her young child die of cancer, and asks 'why doesn't God answer the mother's prayers?' Well, why doesn't he? I have no idea. (I also wonder why, if he created everything, he created diseases like cancer anyway, and furthermore why would he visit that horror upon a little child? Where's the free will there - and where's this great love and compassion we're told God shows for us?).

It seems to me, Lonnie, that this God people talk about so much as a loving, benevolent, caring diety, disappeared many hundreds of years ago - never to return.

[tigerlily11]

I watched something the other night about a place in Russia full of children who have killed.
One boy killed his step father because he was beating his mother, who died of her injurys, Would you apply your reasoning to him Keyplus?
There are inncidents which defy all reason.
If some one you loved was being beaten and abused would you stand by and let it happen?
What if in your attempts to protect them you killed the aggressor?
How would you treat this situation?

[Octavius]

wizzard makes the most valid point in this thread, ignoring the token bickering of course.

I said that he would probably make a plea of insanity, not that he was insane. Random acts of attrocities does not insanity make.

Consider the random acts of violence carried out during times of war and conflict, I'm not talking modern warfare really, perhaps the times when danish or viking raiders came to our shores and raped and slaughtered women and children and enslaved them. They would no doubt have hacked a child to death without care nor thought or conscience. But it didn't mean they were mad.

It is as wizzard has said, each 'act' depends on the situation surrounding it. Sadly we will never really know (except for her incessant crying) what drove this man to carry out this particular crime on that girl at that time.

[monkeyeyes]

Naomi - I had often wondered why such prayers aren't answered more often............and then someone far more learned than I gave me the reason...............apparently 'NO' (as in no intervention) is also a perfectly valid response from God, when these desperate pleas reach his all-hearing ears...........

Comforting, no ?

[Octavius]

If you don't believe that God exists, as you do, then the answer to your own question would seem self explanatory wouldn't it?

If the mothers prayers were answered (by say,... God) and the child recovered, would you say the prayers were answered by God, that a miracle has occurred, or that medical intervention must have saved the day?

If the child suffers and dies, then you blame the God who you believe doesn't exist....?

[naomi24]

Good question, Tigerlily.

Hello monkeyeyes, 'no intervention' is also a perfectly valid response. See what I mean? The perfect get-out clause. Whichever way you look at it, this God remains faultless. He has decided that he's not obliged to answer even the most heartfelt and worthy prayer, nothing unsavoury is ever attributable to him, and despite the fact that he made the monumental decision to allow us free will knowing precisely what would happen, he is never accountable for anything other than the good in this world - and for this he doesn't ask - he demands on pain of everlasting torment - that we worship him and praise him. Why should we? For what?

Octavius, I'm not sure if your post is addressed to me, but if it is, I haven't said I don't believe that God exists. I have said, however, that I don't believe the God of the bible, to whom all these futile prayers are offered, is or was God. However, if you think he is, then just why did he create cancer? It seems he gave that free will also.

[keyplus90]

naomi24
Fri 24/10/08
19:26
Similarly, in the book I'm currently reading, the author puts the case for a mother watching her young child die of cancer, and asks 'why doesn't God answer the mother's prayers?' Well, why doesn't he? I have no idea. (I also wonder why, if he created everything, he created diseases like cancer anyway, and furthermore why would he visit that horror upon a little child? Where's the free will there - and where's this great love and compassion we're told God shows for us?).


I am sure God has listened to many people�s prayers in matters like this, but unless it happens to someone personally he or she would not believe as if you hear about someone in the newspaper or on TV that such and such mother prayed and her child got better then would you simply believe that? I doubt it. Of course you would think about something else and would dismiss that as a lie.

Then in the end why God created disease like cancer? Answer is very very simple. Because this life is temporary. You die of, cancer, heart attack, road accident, air crash, got murdered, or whatever you may think of. Main thing is death because that is the way back where we come from����Oh sorry forgot that you do not believe in all this rubbish.

[Octavius]

naomi, if you are referring to the creationist view of God being the all-creator then yes, He must have created cancer. By the same token he would have created the scientists, surgeons, doctors, nurses, engineers and other experts that have bought about cures and euipment / gadgets for heloing to deal with life's traumas. In addition - to those who believe - He brings hope.

If you credit God with the bad, then why not also credit Him with the good?

[naomi24]

Keyplus, You don't know what I believe. We established that a few days ago.

Your response only tells us what you believe, but that isn't necessarily the truth. We all die. Fact. But why does this God force people to suffer the misery of cancer, or any other dreadful disease, when death can be so easy? Some die, without pain, peacefully in their sleep. And why impose pain and suffering upon little children? It seems this God takes pleasure in human suffering.

Incidentally, you're wrong. If someone told me their prayers had been answered and that their child was cured, I wouldn't say they were lying. I wouldn't be so unkind as to disillusion them. I would, however, believe that the cure hadn't come from your god. I believe he's an imposter.

[naomi24]

Yes, I agree, Octavius, but why would he create such diseases in the first place?

He doesn't appear to bring anything to the faithful. Rather his followers find hope by believing in him.

Personally, I don't credit this God with anything, good or bad, in this day and age. He's long gone. I'm simply discussing the being whose history is recorded in the bible, and who so many see as God. If there is indeed a God, I believe it's something far bigger than him.

I think we've gone off the track of Lonnie's question again. Sorry Lonnie.

[RavenD]

@Lonnie,

God knows everything he is God after all. But we have freewill, God give us the freewill to kill or not to kill. To commit adultery or not, to basically do whatever we want to do.
Saying that does not mean just because we can do it we should. As a Christian I believe this man should have been forgiven, but also locked in a mental institute for life where he could no longer be a danger to anyone.

I personally believe murder's, rapists paedophiles should not be executed but should be studied and try to understand why they do it and how they come to that stage.

I feel it's much more beneficial than to slice his head off or send high voltages their bodies.

[Lonnie]

Raven,
Yes, if you believe in the Biblical God, then he gave us free will, or did he?.

If you know your Bible, if the Children of Israel didn't do what God wanted, he/she punshed them, they may have had freedom of will, but not freedom of choice, and they were punished here, on Eath, not having to wait until they died to find out.

Seems a bit strange, the disparity between then and now.

Maybe Gods dead.