Not A Dry Eye In The House......
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Sack The Padres?
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In the event of a totally secular government. should the military Padres be sacked as irrelevant?
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Octavius, Monkeyeyes got it in one.
Keyplus You say 'God is not vengeful' , and then you say.......
As far as Imams, priests and other people are concerned then if you take them as sincere teachers and in fact if they are sincere then they are OK if they are not then they would be punished more .......
This is a direct contradiction.
Keyplus You say 'God is not vengeful' , and then you say.......
As far as Imams, priests and other people are concerned then if you take them as sincere teachers and in fact if they are sincere then they are OK if they are not then they would be punished more .......
This is a direct contradiction.
Some good bickering, people!
Skyplus: "My father in law [...] just asked me if it was right that this problem was not common among Muslims due to circumcision as his doctor (not Muslim) mentioned. I told him that chances are very little and I have not heard of as many cases in Pakistan as I hear over here."
Er, do you not think factors such as a life expectancy of just 62.73 years in Pakistan vs 76.23 in the UK for a disease that has an average age of diagnosis of 70 (http://atat.ro/u.php?981) are possibly more relevant than the presence (or lack) of an unrelated bit of skin and one's religious orientation?
The reason you're unlikely to die of prostate cancer in Pakistan is because you're probably going to die of something else long before the disease would manifest itself, not because you're imune.
Skyplus: "My father in law [...] just asked me if it was right that this problem was not common among Muslims due to circumcision as his doctor (not Muslim) mentioned. I told him that chances are very little and I have not heard of as many cases in Pakistan as I hear over here."
Er, do you not think factors such as a life expectancy of just 62.73 years in Pakistan vs 76.23 in the UK for a disease that has an average age of diagnosis of 70 (http://atat.ro/u.php?981) are possibly more relevant than the presence (or lack) of an unrelated bit of skin and one's religious orientation?
The reason you're unlikely to die of prostate cancer in Pakistan is because you're probably going to die of something else long before the disease would manifest itself, not because you're imune.
Naomi, the �gripe� so to speak then, is that our statute and laws have been based upon the Bible and that the Queen is head of the CofE, and Bishops/Cardinals sit in the HoL?
So is your belief/god a form of paganism then? Has your god appeared, or done anything practical to help anyone in recent times, or does it not manifest itself at all?
So is your belief/god a form of paganism then? Has your god appeared, or done anything practical to help anyone in recent times, or does it not manifest itself at all?
My gripe, Octavius is that the chance to seek solutions to great medical ills is often de-railed by the men in dog-collars getting their cassocks in a twist.........
Stem-cell research ? A monstrous abomination and Frankenstein medicine.
Their religious convictions could have great impact on MY life; and I don't see why that should be.
This is just one instance of religious interference; obviously, there are far greater ills allowed or approved of under the guise of religious adherence and belief.
Stem-cell research ? A monstrous abomination and Frankenstein medicine.
Their religious convictions could have great impact on MY life; and I don't see why that should be.
This is just one instance of religious interference; obviously, there are far greater ills allowed or approved of under the guise of religious adherence and belief.
Octavius � Do you really believe that the bible you have today is complete word of God and is the same as the teachings of Jesus?
Naomi � So you would like God who lets any one away regardless what they are and have done. So then as I said why not make a law in this world that no punishment at all for anyone, for whatever they do, including, rapists, murderers, and so on.
Waldo � when a knowledgably person like you compare life expectancy with a bit from the religion then I have my doubts. Advantages and disadvantages of the circumcision should not be hidden by someone who knows how to google. Life expectancy in Pakistan is lower because of lack of medical facilities, dodgy foods with added harmful things etc few to name. Otherwise I am sure the number of newborn children die in those countries are a lot more than how many die here, Is that to do with Immune system as well, a good number of woman die while giving birth, what about that. Do they die of disease or lack of commitment by the govt and due to inferior quality of facilities?
Naomi � So you would like God who lets any one away regardless what they are and have done. So then as I said why not make a law in this world that no punishment at all for anyone, for whatever they do, including, rapists, murderers, and so on.
Waldo � when a knowledgably person like you compare life expectancy with a bit from the religion then I have my doubts. Advantages and disadvantages of the circumcision should not be hidden by someone who knows how to google. Life expectancy in Pakistan is lower because of lack of medical facilities, dodgy foods with added harmful things etc few to name. Otherwise I am sure the number of newborn children die in those countries are a lot more than how many die here, Is that to do with Immune system as well, a good number of woman die while giving birth, what about that. Do they die of disease or lack of commitment by the govt and due to inferior quality of facilities?
I was scratching my head over that one as well waldo.
Not only what you said, but due to the gradual privatisation of healthcare in Pakistan, most people have been unable to afford or just had no access to the healthcare tests that would identify early enough cases of such cancer for treatment. Those people would have gone on in pain and agony until they died, and their deaths written off, without cause or record.
So, any cases that you hear of will only be of those few who are wealthy enough to have it identified through private tests, and added to the 'official' statistics. Everyone else just goes unnoticed (and untreated).
Monkey, it is not only the cassocked religious who fear the implications of stem cell research or �Frankenstein� medicine. It�s just that, as you have demonstrated, they have the loudest voice.
Naomi, I always imagined you as a naturist.
Not only what you said, but due to the gradual privatisation of healthcare in Pakistan, most people have been unable to afford or just had no access to the healthcare tests that would identify early enough cases of such cancer for treatment. Those people would have gone on in pain and agony until they died, and their deaths written off, without cause or record.
So, any cases that you hear of will only be of those few who are wealthy enough to have it identified through private tests, and added to the 'official' statistics. Everyone else just goes unnoticed (and untreated).
Monkey, it is not only the cassocked religious who fear the implications of stem cell research or �Frankenstein� medicine. It�s just that, as you have demonstrated, they have the loudest voice.
Naomi, I always imagined you as a naturist.
My point Keyplus is that the connection you seemed to be making ignored obvious factors (the one I mentioned, the one Octavius mentioned) which are far more likely to be causal in the fact that you're not aware of many cases of prostate disease in Pakistan.
Your claim was thus:
'I have heard of few cases of disease X.
Pakistanis are Muslims\have bits of their bits cut off for religious reasons.
Therefore being Muslim\having bits of your bits cut off for religious reasons prevents prostate disease'
Surely it's obvious why that's fallacious?
I'm not sure what point your response back to me was trying to make. The factors you raise (poor diet, bad facilities etc) will obviously contribute to lower average longevity.
If you're seeking to make some medical claims for circumcision, please feel free to do so, citing your sources.
Your claim was thus:
'I have heard of few cases of disease X.
Pakistanis are Muslims\have bits of their bits cut off for religious reasons.
Therefore being Muslim\having bits of your bits cut off for religious reasons prevents prostate disease'
Surely it's obvious why that's fallacious?
I'm not sure what point your response back to me was trying to make. The factors you raise (poor diet, bad facilities etc) will obviously contribute to lower average longevity.
If you're seeking to make some medical claims for circumcision, please feel free to do so, citing your sources.
Take a pick, I know it will not change anything.
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=s pell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=prostate+cancer +and+circumcision&spell=1
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=s pell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=prostate+cancer +and+circumcision&spell=1
-- answer removed --
naomi24
Thurs 13/11/08
13:17 Keyplus, that doesn't address the issue. You said 'God is not vengeful', but he very clearly is. And he's not only vengeful to criminals, is he? He's also vengeful to those who have committed no crime against man - like peace-loving, law-abiding non-believers.
That is good question but there are some flaws in it. Being a Muslims I believe (said this before) that one thing God will never forgive and that is associating a partner with him. All the major religion�s scriptures in the world talk about only one God. Other things God can forgive if he wants to. And many small sins and mistakes are washed away with the hardships, sufferings and repentance in this world.
Now let�s talk about law abiding because that is interesting in your post. Which law would you abide by? To know the right law again you have to know the right law giver and that is not difficult if you really search with open and sincere mind. Before you say anything I am not saying become Muslims. I am saying just follow whatever religion you believe and not the followers of the religion. You do that and all the religions will lead you towards same thing what I said earlier one God and total submission to his will.
cont:
Thurs 13/11/08
13:17 Keyplus, that doesn't address the issue. You said 'God is not vengeful', but he very clearly is. And he's not only vengeful to criminals, is he? He's also vengeful to those who have committed no crime against man - like peace-loving, law-abiding non-believers.
That is good question but there are some flaws in it. Being a Muslims I believe (said this before) that one thing God will never forgive and that is associating a partner with him. All the major religion�s scriptures in the world talk about only one God. Other things God can forgive if he wants to. And many small sins and mistakes are washed away with the hardships, sufferings and repentance in this world.
Now let�s talk about law abiding because that is interesting in your post. Which law would you abide by? To know the right law again you have to know the right law giver and that is not difficult if you really search with open and sincere mind. Before you say anything I am not saying become Muslims. I am saying just follow whatever religion you believe and not the followers of the religion. You do that and all the religions will lead you towards same thing what I said earlier one God and total submission to his will.
cont:
Now all this depends on belief. If you believe in it then do or else wait and see. Because unlike in this world where if you go over limit on the motorway and get caught, then you are punished almost there and then. You can�t say why are you being threatened with fine and just abide by it. In the case of this life you have till the end of the world (or till you die in personal case) to either pay the fine by repentance and try sincerely not to do it again or be adamant that you haven�t done any thing wrong and then wait and see. That is called free will. Now when the time comes you can not blame the law maker for being vengeful as you can not say to the motorway police that they are vengeful as they are not doing anything that you were not aware of the consequences.
Someone gave a very good example. Suppose there are two kids in the same class and one of them is really working had and preparing for the exams and doing all the homework and following the teachings. Whereas the other one simply says �there would be no exams�. Now you tell me,
1. What if at the end teacher does say no exams and both of you pass. Do you expect teacher to do that?
2. What if there is exam and result is as expected, the one who prepared passes the exams and other one failed. Would you blame teacher for his failure,
3. What if teacher said in advance looking at their preparation that A will pass and B will fail, Would you say B failed only because teacher said so or would you say that teacher predicted because he knew about their preparation?
Please answer these questions.
Someone gave a very good example. Suppose there are two kids in the same class and one of them is really working had and preparing for the exams and doing all the homework and following the teachings. Whereas the other one simply says �there would be no exams�. Now you tell me,
1. What if at the end teacher does say no exams and both of you pass. Do you expect teacher to do that?
2. What if there is exam and result is as expected, the one who prepared passes the exams and other one failed. Would you blame teacher for his failure,
3. What if teacher said in advance looking at their preparation that A will pass and B will fail, Would you say B failed only because teacher said so or would you say that teacher predicted because he knew about their preparation?
Please answer these questions.
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