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The Promised Land
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If there never had been a Promised Land, would the world be a better place?
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Everton, the basis for my hypothetical question isn't flawed, but your comprehension of it clearly is, otherwise you wouldn't still be talking about history. Quite simply. if the promised land had never existed, it follows that the politics and history connected to it now would never have existed either. It's a simple enough concept.
Even if they think they are a special case (big assumption), it would tell us nothing important about whether the central premie was true, so the question has no significant value.
By virtue of their deeds historically they've proven themselves happy to immerse themselves in foreign cultures (it was a central plank of facisms rejection of Judaism as a corruption) the only country were Jews lived a largely peaceful existence was Palestine.
They were exterminated and persecuted by a section of western society, at the end of it all those that wanted to return were often chased away, no other countries were willing to take them, apart from the Jewish residents of Palestine who along with other supporters throughout the world sought a solution that way.
A Jewish homeland anywhere given the history of Judaism was a difficult thing to argue against.
Israel came about due to nothing more than western political nimbyism, the land of Israel as a historical/religious narrative is nothing more than a political casus bellai for it's foundation.
By virtue of their deeds historically they've proven themselves happy to immerse themselves in foreign cultures (it was a central plank of facisms rejection of Judaism as a corruption) the only country were Jews lived a largely peaceful existence was Palestine.
They were exterminated and persecuted by a section of western society, at the end of it all those that wanted to return were often chased away, no other countries were willing to take them, apart from the Jewish residents of Palestine who along with other supporters throughout the world sought a solution that way.
A Jewish homeland anywhere given the history of Judaism was a difficult thing to argue against.
Israel came about due to nothing more than western political nimbyism, the land of Israel as a historical/religious narrative is nothing more than a political casus bellai for it's foundation.
Everton, Even if they think they are a special case (big assumption),...........
No assumption. The chosen ones - with a specially promised land - and the only people God ever hung around with. I'd say that's pretty special. I don't know any other group who have been deemed so important by God, or been given such individual attention.
As for the rest, you're talking history again. You haven't understood or grasped the idea of the question at all. Never mind. Since you feel it has no significant value anyway, I really don't know why you're bothering to even attempt to answer it.
No assumption. The chosen ones - with a specially promised land - and the only people God ever hung around with. I'd say that's pretty special. I don't know any other group who have been deemed so important by God, or been given such individual attention.
As for the rest, you're talking history again. You haven't understood or grasped the idea of the question at all. Never mind. Since you feel it has no significant value anyway, I really don't know why you're bothering to even attempt to answer it.
I feel I've dealt succinctly with your question in my last paragraph.
You've stated the question steeped in your opinion of Jews this opinion is deeply flawed as I've demonstrated to you several times on this very thread.
You cannot suspend history to formulate this hypothesis, if it was'nt for the Great War then Britain would not have had a mandate in Palestine, so any declaration made by Balfour would be worthless.
You've completely diregarded the content of world history that brought Israel into being, and that's the rub.
You've stated the question steeped in your opinion of Jews this opinion is deeply flawed as I've demonstrated to you several times on this very thread.
You cannot suspend history to formulate this hypothesis, if it was'nt for the Great War then Britain would not have had a mandate in Palestine, so any declaration made by Balfour would be worthless.
You've completely diregarded the content of world history that brought Israel into being, and that's the rub.
Everton, to ask this.hypothetical question, or indeed to attempt to answer it, one has to completely disregard the content of world history that brought Israel into being, since that history wouldn't exist if there had never been a promised land. The rub is that you don't understand the question or the concept. The question, according to you, has no significant value anyway, so why you persist I can't imagine. Odd that. Just give it up.
Oh dear oh dear.
Why after many thousands of years did the Jews feel the need to found Israel?
Because of the events in world history.
You've stated "they" very fully and repeatedly, what every single Jew on this earth thinks they're God's chosen people?
A huge assumption.
As I stated very clearly earlier the religious/historical narrative is a political manouver.
You've completely misunderstood the circumstances and realities of this world which is why the question has no significant value.
Why after many thousands of years did the Jews feel the need to found Israel?
Because of the events in world history.
You've stated "they" very fully and repeatedly, what every single Jew on this earth thinks they're God's chosen people?
A huge assumption.
As I stated very clearly earlier the religious/historical narrative is a political manouver.
You've completely misunderstood the circumstances and realities of this world which is why the question has no significant value.
Actually everton, I think naomi's question is very significant, because as has been pointed out, Jews do feel they are special, which may be one of the reasons for anti-Semitism etc.
However, Take Jews out of the equation. and whats left, Ghengis Khan, Hitler, Mao, Stalin etc, I don't think anything would have changed, because of mans capacitity to invent the bad, as well as the good, and act on it.
naomi', I haven't actually lost faith in mankind, but i'm getting there, and its mainly to do with the suffering of innocents, that we, adults, inflict on them.
maybe I dwell to much.
However, Take Jews out of the equation. and whats left, Ghengis Khan, Hitler, Mao, Stalin etc, I don't think anything would have changed, because of mans capacitity to invent the bad, as well as the good, and act on it.
naomi', I haven't actually lost faith in mankind, but i'm getting there, and its mainly to do with the suffering of innocents, that we, adults, inflict on them.
maybe I dwell to much.
Thanks for that, Lonnie. There's no doubt dictators and despots would still have made their mark on mankind, but if it wasn't for the unique situation of the Jews in portraying themselves, and in being seen, not simply as followers of a religion, like everyone else, but as 'a people' with a promised land, and chosen by God, I wonder if Hitler would have made quite such a terrible mark? The promised land has created such enormous problems for the world, and there is no solution that will suit both sides. How could there be? It wouldn't be so bad if a remedy could be found in 'bumping off' a dictator, for example. If only it were that simple. It all seems so cruel and inhumane to me - and in the great scheme of things, so totally futile. I'm aware of the politics, I'm aware of the history, but in reality I've travelled to some of the countries affected by this on-going conflict, I've seen the plight of the Palestinian refugees in some of those places, I've watched and followed the news over the years, and I've seen the hatred and the bias on both sides - and after all that, all I can think is 'people are just people, so what's it all about?' No doubt someone will now come back and say 'what about the plight of the Jews?', but the answer to that is if there had never been a promised land, the Jews would have naturally integrated into the world, as has everyone else, and their plight over the centuries would never have arisen. I find it all so terribly sad. Maybe you're not the only one who dwells too much. x
Happy New Year, naomi.............:o)
I had my hat taken away a while ago..........and haven't bothered to find out if they have let me have it back; so I shall content myself with being 'Hatless Jack', for a while........
Cor !!
Some folks seem absolutely determined to misunderstand the word hypothetical, don't they ?
Perhaps, had any Promised Land never been promised, the promisee would have been content to stay and assimilate wherever he/she was.
Surely, someone with their gaze permanently fixed on the horizon is not a fully functioning citizen of where they 'are'.
However, without the 'Holy Sandal/Holy Gourd' schism of the Middle Eastern religions and two vain and intransigent deities to fan the flames...........who knows just how well the peoples of that part of the world may have rubbed along together........?
I had my hat taken away a while ago..........and haven't bothered to find out if they have let me have it back; so I shall content myself with being 'Hatless Jack', for a while........
Cor !!
Some folks seem absolutely determined to misunderstand the word hypothetical, don't they ?
Perhaps, had any Promised Land never been promised, the promisee would have been content to stay and assimilate wherever he/she was.
Surely, someone with their gaze permanently fixed on the horizon is not a fully functioning citizen of where they 'are'.
However, without the 'Holy Sandal/Holy Gourd' schism of the Middle Eastern religions and two vain and intransigent deities to fan the flames...........who knows just how well the peoples of that part of the world may have rubbed along together........?
Hello Jack, how nice to see you - and a very Happy New Year to you too.
Blimey, that must have been some crime you committed to leave you hatless!! So pleased you decided to come back though - albeit half-dressed!
As for hypothetical - difficult isn't it? You have to wonder what really goes on in the human mind at times. Not to worry. I have a sense of humour, and it's good to greet a New Year with a laugh. :o)
Blimey, that must have been some crime you committed to leave you hatless!! So pleased you decided to come back though - albeit half-dressed!
As for hypothetical - difficult isn't it? You have to wonder what really goes on in the human mind at times. Not to worry. I have a sense of humour, and it's good to greet a New Year with a laugh. :o)
Lonnie prefers to focus on the evil b@st@rds and forgets the likes of Ghandi and (Nelson) Mandela (Winnie was always on the other team).
Fact is the Jews are the greatest hypocrites of all time. They lament the genocide prepetrated upon them by Hilter while exalting the genocidal massacres perpetrated by their ancestors.
Any decent human being born a Jew would reject their heritage if it were not for their all-pervasive indoctrination.
All who accept the Old Testament as the word of God are bloodied by the Israelite evil. Christ accepted the philosophy this disgusting book. He was nothing special. Just another among those deluded by the spell of Abraham and his evil monster.
Fact is the Jews are the greatest hypocrites of all time. They lament the genocide prepetrated upon them by Hilter while exalting the genocidal massacres perpetrated by their ancestors.
Any decent human being born a Jew would reject their heritage if it were not for their all-pervasive indoctrination.
All who accept the Old Testament as the word of God are bloodied by the Israelite evil. Christ accepted the philosophy this disgusting book. He was nothing special. Just another among those deluded by the spell of Abraham and his evil monster.
How often must they be reminded of all the times the "promises" to a "chosen people" of a "promised land" has been broken by the very one they worship? They are right to acknowledge such as due retribution . . . only for the wrong transgression; their devotion to an ancient pretense that has at every turn repeatedly abandoned them throughout their long and tortured history . . . sad indeed.
People hating and killing each other - and for what? A scrap of desert - when in reality there's room in the world for everyone Tell Hamas it's a scrap of desert - or any muslim...and they will throw their shoes at you if not kill you!
Submissive/subordinate people bend to their religious elders, because their will has been broken from early enforced doctrine. Rel-eld take advantage of their power over their community and incite the followers into outrages. Unfortunate for Israel to have moronic brain-washed neighbours in Hamas. Bethlehem is the heart for Christians who share the 'promised land'.
Submissive/subordinate people bend to their religious elders, because their will has been broken from early enforced doctrine. Rel-eld take advantage of their power over their community and incite the followers into outrages. Unfortunate for Israel to have moronic brain-washed neighbours in Hamas. Bethlehem is the heart for Christians who share the 'promised land'.
I don't see how espousing yourself as special can condone centuries of persecution.
Whatever the Bible said about a promised land was of no real significance to anyone until the advent of political Zionism in the late 19th century, it gathered very little momentum up to the 1920s until after the war, there was nowhere else for them to go.
We in Europe created the problem, not them, they fully integrated into society they were even accused of being Jewish in secret that's how fully integrated they were in western european society.
The "promised land" was in reality the only place where there was people willing to house them because they'd never left, Britain refused to take them, America refused to take them etc, if you're exiled (in effect) from Poland and become stateless, it is us in the west who classed them as different (to some untermenschen) is Israel that much different to the Irish than Ulster?
Gibraltar to the Spanish, or the Falklands to the Argentinans?
How about Abkharzia or South Ossettia, these are all disputed enclaves formulated by an immigrant population.
I've never met a Jew who's said he's special, and I've met several.
I think what some people are hiding from is the fact that we created this problem and promptly washed our hands of the matter.
Mia culpa?
I'm happy to hypothesise on anything and I don't condone many of the acts of modern Israel (or old Israel for that matter) but the question is skewed because it is a modern political doctrine, borne out of western deceipt and convenience.
The world would be a much better place without that.
Whatever the Bible said about a promised land was of no real significance to anyone until the advent of political Zionism in the late 19th century, it gathered very little momentum up to the 1920s until after the war, there was nowhere else for them to go.
We in Europe created the problem, not them, they fully integrated into society they were even accused of being Jewish in secret that's how fully integrated they were in western european society.
The "promised land" was in reality the only place where there was people willing to house them because they'd never left, Britain refused to take them, America refused to take them etc, if you're exiled (in effect) from Poland and become stateless, it is us in the west who classed them as different (to some untermenschen) is Israel that much different to the Irish than Ulster?
Gibraltar to the Spanish, or the Falklands to the Argentinans?
How about Abkharzia or South Ossettia, these are all disputed enclaves formulated by an immigrant population.
I've never met a Jew who's said he's special, and I've met several.
I think what some people are hiding from is the fact that we created this problem and promptly washed our hands of the matter.
Mia culpa?
I'm happy to hypothesise on anything and I don't condone many of the acts of modern Israel (or old Israel for that matter) but the question is skewed because it is a modern political doctrine, borne out of western deceipt and convenience.
The world would be a much better place without that.
Constant reference to the 'chosen people' is a phrase often used by those who, over the centuries, have oppressed and persecuted the Jews.
From my time at school I recall the Jews were the people who 'chose', not who were chosen. They chose to accept the Ten Commandmants.
Regardless of whether Jews or any other people have or have not obeyed all these commandants it has become yet another way of perpetuating antisemitism.
From my time at school I recall the Jews were the people who 'chose', not who were chosen. They chose to accept the Ten Commandmants.
Regardless of whether Jews or any other people have or have not obeyed all these commandants it has become yet another way of perpetuating antisemitism.
Naomi, all I'm trying to stress to you is that the promised land as we understand it is a modern political tool, not a religious epiphet.
Jews never saw a conflict in being Latvian and Jewish, Lithuanian and Jewish, Polish and Jewish, German and Jewish, British and Jewish, American and Jewish, we did.
We said they were different, we said they were foreigners, even when they sat in the pub singing songs with us that they'd wrote, even when they married our sons and daughters we said they were different.
Not them.
Read Edith Hahn Beer's book "The Nazi Officer's Wife" that'll give you some insight into the nature of the changes brought about by the anschluss.
That aside (as it is slightly off thread) if you were to go back 100 years ago and asked Jews what they thought the promised land meant you'd get a completely different answer, you certainly would'nt get modern Israel.
Ask yourself at the end of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th century the world witnessed the biggest mass migration it had ever seen.
Why was'nt there a Jewish diaspora to Israel? There was persecution in Russia, discrimination in Geramany and Austria, why? There was no Islamic movement or jihadists then, so why?
Because there was no desire, there was no political will, they just went to the next safe place (usually here).
In 1945 they'd have gone to Australia and settled there happily if the Aussies would have had them.
Don't fall for modern Iraeli propaganda, using the same tools of "antiquity" the NSDAP used.
Jews never saw a conflict in being Latvian and Jewish, Lithuanian and Jewish, Polish and Jewish, German and Jewish, British and Jewish, American and Jewish, we did.
We said they were different, we said they were foreigners, even when they sat in the pub singing songs with us that they'd wrote, even when they married our sons and daughters we said they were different.
Not them.
Read Edith Hahn Beer's book "The Nazi Officer's Wife" that'll give you some insight into the nature of the changes brought about by the anschluss.
That aside (as it is slightly off thread) if you were to go back 100 years ago and asked Jews what they thought the promised land meant you'd get a completely different answer, you certainly would'nt get modern Israel.
Ask yourself at the end of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th century the world witnessed the biggest mass migration it had ever seen.
Why was'nt there a Jewish diaspora to Israel? There was persecution in Russia, discrimination in Geramany and Austria, why? There was no Islamic movement or jihadists then, so why?
Because there was no desire, there was no political will, they just went to the next safe place (usually here).
In 1945 they'd have gone to Australia and settled there happily if the Aussies would have had them.
Don't fall for modern Iraeli propaganda, using the same tools of "antiquity" the NSDAP used.
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