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The Promised Land
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If there never had been a Promised Land, would the world be a better place?
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Everton, I can assure you I need lessons in neither history nor politics from you. At the risk of repeating myself - yet again - what the promised land is or is not, has absolutely no bearing on this hypothetical question. However, if you're not too wrapped up in your own relentless and irrelevant diatribe, it might benefit you to re-read what Lonnie said.
Actually everton, I think naomi's question is very significant, because as has been pointed out, Jews do feel they are special, which may be one of the reasons for anti-Semitism etc.
And if you weren't aware, Lonnie is Jewish.
There's no point in continuing this thread, so enough now.
Thanks everyone.
Actually everton, I think naomi's question is very significant, because as has been pointed out, Jews do feel they are special, which may be one of the reasons for anti-Semitism etc.
And if you weren't aware, Lonnie is Jewish.
There's no point in continuing this thread, so enough now.
Thanks everyone.
everton,
Thats an answer that explains a lot, excellent.
How about if we take Jews out of the equation, no Jews, ever, Hypothetical of course, but with the nature of mankind, I wonder which people would be the scapegoats of History?, because i'm sure it would have happened,
Beso,
I do recognise the good thats been done in this world, and the people that that pertains to, but I tend to dwell on the evil that abounds, and wonder how we can stoop so low.
Thats an answer that explains a lot, excellent.
How about if we take Jews out of the equation, no Jews, ever, Hypothetical of course, but with the nature of mankind, I wonder which people would be the scapegoats of History?, because i'm sure it would have happened,
Beso,
I do recognise the good thats been done in this world, and the people that that pertains to, but I tend to dwell on the evil that abounds, and wonder how we can stoop so low.
Lonnie, take your pick, everyone in this world has suffered oppression since it began.
It's a commonly held deceipt that the Nazis only picked on Jews, Socialists, gays, trade unionists etc. but actually you did'nt have to be any of those, if you just did'nt fit in you had problems.
Goths are a common victim of assault these days, anything that's different will get attacked.
You are right people can be vicious regardless of race, creed, colour, sexual orientation, political, or non-theist leanings.
Silly people cling to a rather churlish notion that if all the good people get together and get rid of all the bad people we can all go and live in this happy place, and it's not true, by ridding yourself of your enemy in such a manner you in turn become them.
Naomi I don't know what you're getting so huffy about.
You've produced a popular misconception about Jews being conflicted by nationality, there is not one shred of proof to substantiate the nature of that hypothesis, during The Great War did German Jewish soldiers refuse to shoot British Jewish soldiers?
No, of course they did'nt, why?
Because they were British first etc. and in no means conflicted.
And again in the answer to the question I've repeated to you (3 times now) the notion of a promised land that you hypothesise is a modern one, NOT an ancient one.
It is a modern political ploy, I would've thought you of all people were'nt so gullible as not to spot and fall for political spin when you see it.
So if it pleases you I'll answer the question in the only other way I can correctly and truthfully answer it.
Would the world be a better place without political Zionistic doctrine on the nature, reality, foreign and racial policy with regard to it's own borders, concealed by a supposed religious ideology?
Then yes, but that's not the question you asked because like I've explained above and before.
It's a commonly held deceipt that the Nazis only picked on Jews, Socialists, gays, trade unionists etc. but actually you did'nt have to be any of those, if you just did'nt fit in you had problems.
Goths are a common victim of assault these days, anything that's different will get attacked.
You are right people can be vicious regardless of race, creed, colour, sexual orientation, political, or non-theist leanings.
Silly people cling to a rather churlish notion that if all the good people get together and get rid of all the bad people we can all go and live in this happy place, and it's not true, by ridding yourself of your enemy in such a manner you in turn become them.
Naomi I don't know what you're getting so huffy about.
You've produced a popular misconception about Jews being conflicted by nationality, there is not one shred of proof to substantiate the nature of that hypothesis, during The Great War did German Jewish soldiers refuse to shoot British Jewish soldiers?
No, of course they did'nt, why?
Because they were British first etc. and in no means conflicted.
And again in the answer to the question I've repeated to you (3 times now) the notion of a promised land that you hypothesise is a modern one, NOT an ancient one.
It is a modern political ploy, I would've thought you of all people were'nt so gullible as not to spot and fall for political spin when you see it.
So if it pleases you I'll answer the question in the only other way I can correctly and truthfully answer it.
Would the world be a better place without political Zionistic doctrine on the nature, reality, foreign and racial policy with regard to it's own borders, concealed by a supposed religious ideology?
Then yes, but that's not the question you asked because like I've explained above and before.
Furthermore I placed several rhetorical questions in my other post.
Do you agree with the contentions I made about the absence of an earlier Jewish diaspora?
Discuss.
P.S.
Read the book, you'll enjoy it, it's excellent, I'd advise any and all on here to read it, don't let your own personal petty enmity towards me dissuade from a truly breathtaking piece of literature written by an ordinary every day middle class educated woman, not unlike yourself (even though she's Jewish), who found herself twixt in the most remarkable turns of fate imaginable.
P.P.S
Lonnie there are in that tome some remarkable acts of kindness from people you would'nt expect it from, because there is some good in even the worst of us.
Do you agree with the contentions I made about the absence of an earlier Jewish diaspora?
Discuss.
P.S.
Read the book, you'll enjoy it, it's excellent, I'd advise any and all on here to read it, don't let your own personal petty enmity towards me dissuade from a truly breathtaking piece of literature written by an ordinary every day middle class educated woman, not unlike yourself (even though she's Jewish), who found herself twixt in the most remarkable turns of fate imaginable.
P.P.S
Lonnie there are in that tome some remarkable acts of kindness from people you would'nt expect it from, because there is some good in even the worst of us.
everton:
The notion of a Promised Land is modern????? Rubbish.
It is there in black and whilte in the Old Testament.
The churlish notion that the world would be better if we got rid of the bad people is part and parcel with the fundamental Biblical philospphy that justifies the genocide committed by the Israelites.
Hitler was motivated by the exactly the same philosophy. Kill all those who are different and everyone will get along better.
The notion of a Promised Land is modern????? Rubbish.
It is there in black and whilte in the Old Testament.
The churlish notion that the world would be better if we got rid of the bad people is part and parcel with the fundamental Biblical philospphy that justifies the genocide committed by the Israelites.
Hitler was motivated by the exactly the same philosophy. Kill all those who are different and everyone will get along better.
Everton, you're mistaken. I hold no personal enmity against you - I don't know you. However, judging from just about every thread I meet you on it's clear that the reverse is entirely accurate. From my own point of view, I simply find your continual attempts to create unnecessary conflict with your incessant determination to commandeer every question and to twist it into something it isn't, thereby wrecking any hope of civilised debate on any subject, not only for me, but for everyone else too, rather tiresome. In short, Everton, you're boring.
Naomi I only ever speak as I'm spoken to.
I've answered your question consistently, I've given examples as to why your contentions are (IMHO) wrong, if you find that boring, tough.
The question is'nt about the bibliclal God or it's mention of the promised land.
It is about the formation and history of modern Israel (your first responses demonstrate this) this interpretation of the promised land is brand new.
I maintain that contention and ask you again to proffer an insight into why the Jews did'nt found Israel sooner?
They had the means and the motive, if the promised land is an old idea held treasured by the Jews why did they wait until after the war to do it?
Why not a flood after the Balfour declaration?
You have to appreciate also that Palestine was a land fought for and over by foreign powers, history teaches us that civil war and partition often follow for peoples freed from the yoke of imperialism, Israel is no different.
I've answered your question consistently, I've given examples as to why your contentions are (IMHO) wrong, if you find that boring, tough.
The question is'nt about the bibliclal God or it's mention of the promised land.
It is about the formation and history of modern Israel (your first responses demonstrate this) this interpretation of the promised land is brand new.
I maintain that contention and ask you again to proffer an insight into why the Jews did'nt found Israel sooner?
They had the means and the motive, if the promised land is an old idea held treasured by the Jews why did they wait until after the war to do it?
Why not a flood after the Balfour declaration?
You have to appreciate also that Palestine was a land fought for and over by foreign powers, history teaches us that civil war and partition often follow for peoples freed from the yoke of imperialism, Israel is no different.
Everton, although, as Beso says, the concept of the Promised Land is ancient, whether you agree with him or not, it's irrelevant to the original question. If you don't understand the question in the context in which it was asked, or if you do understand it but prefer to go off at a tangent and pose unrelated questions concerning history or politics, I have no interest in them, so please don't aim them at me personally. Start another thread and give anyone who is interested the opportunity to answer.
But the politics of the promised land is brand new.
And that is what the promised land is, politics.
If the Jews cleave to Israel, if they have wanted to found it for a long time, why wait?
Why did'nt they do it during the Crimean War? The Tsar could've got rid of his troublesome Jews, after the Russian defeat why did'nt Austrian, French and British Jews utilise Turkish weakness and indebtedness to them to move themselves in?
Why did'nt they lobby Benjamin Disraeli, whose parents were Jewish? I think.
Why did'nt they try again during the Ottoman turmoil and the advent of the "Young Turk" takeover, or the problems that led to the resignation of Mustapha Kemal Bey?
Why after WW1 did they not seize on the opportunity with so many war weary nations blighted by influenza?
Or the Balfour declaration?
Are Jews so politically naieve to miss these opportunities, are they so far removed from the levers of political power to render such hopes impotentent?
Why did the Nazis scour the earth (and they did) looking for countries to "house" the Jews?
If the promised land was such a widespread hope and ambition? They'd have chosen Palestine rather than try and use Madagascar, the Jews themselves would have welcomed it, as they, of course, had no loyalty to Germany.
And that is what the promised land is, politics.
If the Jews cleave to Israel, if they have wanted to found it for a long time, why wait?
Why did'nt they do it during the Crimean War? The Tsar could've got rid of his troublesome Jews, after the Russian defeat why did'nt Austrian, French and British Jews utilise Turkish weakness and indebtedness to them to move themselves in?
Why did'nt they lobby Benjamin Disraeli, whose parents were Jewish? I think.
Why did'nt they try again during the Ottoman turmoil and the advent of the "Young Turk" takeover, or the problems that led to the resignation of Mustapha Kemal Bey?
Why after WW1 did they not seize on the opportunity with so many war weary nations blighted by influenza?
Or the Balfour declaration?
Are Jews so politically naieve to miss these opportunities, are they so far removed from the levers of political power to render such hopes impotentent?
Why did the Nazis scour the earth (and they did) looking for countries to "house" the Jews?
If the promised land was such a widespread hope and ambition? They'd have chosen Palestine rather than try and use Madagascar, the Jews themselves would have welcomed it, as they, of course, had no loyalty to Germany.
The reality is that if you went to Latvia a 100 years ago and said to a Jewish cobbler "sell up, we're all going to move back to the promised land" he'd have laughed at you and said you were nuts.
He'd remind you that he was a Latvian, not a Palestinian, that his family had been there for more than a hundred years, that he had a good business, good friends (so he thought) and that his children were happy in their schools.
After the war, the whole of europe was in flux, 1000s of people going home to east, 1000s more trying to get to the west, and every door closed on them.
The empire in decline and new states forming up out of old countries, Pakistan for instance. Stateless Jews unwilling or unable to go home, unwelcome everywhere else, what to do?
In Palestine resident Jews (who'd never left Palestine) saw a political opportunity similar to Pakistan, but they were few, what to do?
On the borders of Germany a once proud and happy Latvian man surveys the wreckage of his life his family are all gone, his money and his property stolen, his friends betrayers, nowhere to go, what to do?
He'd remind you that he was a Latvian, not a Palestinian, that his family had been there for more than a hundred years, that he had a good business, good friends (so he thought) and that his children were happy in their schools.
After the war, the whole of europe was in flux, 1000s of people going home to east, 1000s more trying to get to the west, and every door closed on them.
The empire in decline and new states forming up out of old countries, Pakistan for instance. Stateless Jews unwilling or unable to go home, unwelcome everywhere else, what to do?
In Palestine resident Jews (who'd never left Palestine) saw a political opportunity similar to Pakistan, but they were few, what to do?
On the borders of Germany a once proud and happy Latvian man surveys the wreckage of his life his family are all gone, his money and his property stolen, his friends betrayers, nowhere to go, what to do?
In Palestine a man pronounces why live where we're not wanted?
Why be an immigrant in every land after 2000 years?
Why allow ourselves to be governed by others?
We shall recreate Israel and live in freedom.
The Jew would reply "but I am a Latvian."
"No" would come the answer "you are a Jew, you are the eternal Jew. You were always a Jew, and no matter where you travel in the world you will never be viewed as a Latvian, an English man or a Pole.
We in Palestine are the only ones who want you, we're the only ones who love you, the only ones who'll take you."
And they were.
The irony is that the Jew had to become an immigrant to acquire a nationality.
The promised land?
Is a political tool and we created it.
Sorry to wake you.
Why be an immigrant in every land after 2000 years?
Why allow ourselves to be governed by others?
We shall recreate Israel and live in freedom.
The Jew would reply "but I am a Latvian."
"No" would come the answer "you are a Jew, you are the eternal Jew. You were always a Jew, and no matter where you travel in the world you will never be viewed as a Latvian, an English man or a Pole.
We in Palestine are the only ones who want you, we're the only ones who love you, the only ones who'll take you."
And they were.
The irony is that the Jew had to become an immigrant to acquire a nationality.
The promised land?
Is a political tool and we created it.
Sorry to wake you.
I'm not wanting to take sides, but ever since the Romans sent the Jews into the Diaspora, the Prayer has been, 'Next Year in Jerusalem',
The meaning is clear, back to the 'promised Land', a blatent yearning for it, so I think your question naomi, is very relevent.
yes you have Jews, millions, who are content with their adopted land, and adopted is the right word.
I don't worship now, but when I did, part of the Sabbath Eve service, always incorperated the oath, 'Never Forget that you are a Guest in the country that you live in', that was alway preceded by the allegiance to God, Queen and Country
The meaning is clear, back to the 'promised Land', a blatent yearning for it, so I think your question naomi, is very relevent.
yes you have Jews, millions, who are content with their adopted land, and adopted is the right word.
I don't worship now, but when I did, part of the Sabbath Eve service, always incorperated the oath, 'Never Forget that you are a Guest in the country that you live in', that was alway preceded by the allegiance to God, Queen and Country
Well I'd sooner amuse you than bore you. ;-)
But you still have'nt dealt with the promised land's antiquity.
I've shown you a series of events in the 19th and 20th centuries that could've brought about a Jewish state in Israel, even if it fell under Ottamon hegemony.
But it did'nt transpire, it did'nt even germinate, why?
As the Romans cast the Jews out, so did we.
Modern Israel and it's promised land is our creation.
For the Jew in 1948 the promised land was anywhere we were'nt, for us it was anywhere they were'nt.
We could've given them a swathe of Austria and Germany perhaps even Italy too (although they had swapped sides by then) but if we had, the trouble in Gaza would be in Vienna etc.
The promised land as we know it is a politically expedient tool to make our troublesome history somebody elses problem.
Ask yourself this, in the 21st century in multicultural Britain if people can still espouse that the Jews are'nt really British then that tells you more about our attitude towards an Israeli state than theirs.
I have never heard a Jew say they have difficulty being British and Jewish, I've heard Muslims say it, but never a Jew.
The contention is erroneous.
Israel is a Zionist creation of the late 19th century it found it's hubris in the 1920s on the back of popularist anti-semitism in the west but even then it was a tiny insignificant movement, it was only after the war that the promised land came to the fore of modern Jewish thought.
Lonnie, speak your mind you're Jewish you know more about Judaism than I do, but in all honesty when the Rabbi said "next year Jerusalem" do you think he meant the modern Israeli nation, do you think the idea of the promised land was meant to be so blood soaked, or rather a more organic event.
The state of Israel occurred quickly, and that was our fault.
But you still have'nt dealt with the promised land's antiquity.
I've shown you a series of events in the 19th and 20th centuries that could've brought about a Jewish state in Israel, even if it fell under Ottamon hegemony.
But it did'nt transpire, it did'nt even germinate, why?
As the Romans cast the Jews out, so did we.
Modern Israel and it's promised land is our creation.
For the Jew in 1948 the promised land was anywhere we were'nt, for us it was anywhere they were'nt.
We could've given them a swathe of Austria and Germany perhaps even Italy too (although they had swapped sides by then) but if we had, the trouble in Gaza would be in Vienna etc.
The promised land as we know it is a politically expedient tool to make our troublesome history somebody elses problem.
Ask yourself this, in the 21st century in multicultural Britain if people can still espouse that the Jews are'nt really British then that tells you more about our attitude towards an Israeli state than theirs.
I have never heard a Jew say they have difficulty being British and Jewish, I've heard Muslims say it, but never a Jew.
The contention is erroneous.
Israel is a Zionist creation of the late 19th century it found it's hubris in the 1920s on the back of popularist anti-semitism in the west but even then it was a tiny insignificant movement, it was only after the war that the promised land came to the fore of modern Jewish thought.
Lonnie, speak your mind you're Jewish you know more about Judaism than I do, but in all honesty when the Rabbi said "next year Jerusalem" do you think he meant the modern Israeli nation, do you think the idea of the promised land was meant to be so blood soaked, or rather a more organic event.
The state of Israel occurred quickly, and that was our fault.
Sorry, the link to the full film is this.
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-660 4775898578139565&ei=Vf9fSfu7HorojgKy29H7CA&q=p eace+propaganda+and+the+promised+land&hl=en
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-660 4775898578139565&ei=Vf9fSfu7HorojgKy29H7CA&q=p eace+propaganda+and+the+promised+land&hl=en
But you still have'nt dealt with the promised land's antiquity.
Everton, you're relentless. Are you actually reading anything that anyone else says? You've even failed to understand what Lonnie told you. It wasn't a rabbi who said 'Next year in Jerusalem'. Read what he said again. ....ever since the Romans sent the Jews into the Diaspora, the Prayer has been, 'Next Year in Jerusalem',
Rather than coming back again like a bull in a china shop, just try to listen for a moment. In order to address this hypothetical question, you have to ignore history because hypothetically, the Promised Land never existed, and therefore hypothetically the history of it could never have existed either. Consequently if you want to address the question, then all your talk of history (and politics) is, quite clearly, completely irrelevant. Now do you understand? (I think I should get an award for patience). :o/
Everton, you're relentless. Are you actually reading anything that anyone else says? You've even failed to understand what Lonnie told you. It wasn't a rabbi who said 'Next year in Jerusalem'. Read what he said again. ....ever since the Romans sent the Jews into the Diaspora, the Prayer has been, 'Next Year in Jerusalem',
Rather than coming back again like a bull in a china shop, just try to listen for a moment. In order to address this hypothetical question, you have to ignore history because hypothetically, the Promised Land never existed, and therefore hypothetically the history of it could never have existed either. Consequently if you want to address the question, then all your talk of history (and politics) is, quite clearly, completely irrelevant. Now do you understand? (I think I should get an award for patience). :o/
Naomi, my contention is that regardless of the prayer nothing was done to bring about the promised land until the mid 20th century.
Why?
There's an old saying to ask God to do something whilst you do nothing is not religion it's superstition, for 2000 and odd years nothing happened.
The promised land (as we know it) is a political ploy, if politics stayed out of religion the world would be a much better place.
Why?
There's an old saying to ask God to do something whilst you do nothing is not religion it's superstition, for 2000 and odd years nothing happened.
The promised land (as we know it) is a political ploy, if politics stayed out of religion the world would be a much better place.
Everton, Again, none of what you're saying has any bearing whatsoever upon this question. I've tried very hard to convey to you the hypothetical idea that a promised land had never, ever, been thought of - never - not in ancient times and not in modern times - but you just aren't listening, because you're still talking about politics and history. Perhaps someone else can explain the question to you. I'm all out of ideas.
Anyone else want to give it a try?
Anyone else want to give it a try?
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