God and America

[ludwig]

What with all the hoo-ha going on in America at the moment, I was wondering - will there ever be an openly atheist president? or is that actually a bigger barrier to cross than the racial one?

[naomi24]

That's a narrow margin. Makes you wonder if some are, but won't admit it for fear of damaging their political career.

[QueenOfAmber]

One barrier at a time!
;)

[USALady]

WaldoMcFroog: Yes it is in black and white that he states he is a Christian; however, he has also been quoted as saying he is not sure all scripture is true which raises a lot of questions in the minds of true Christians. We believe that either you believe it all or not. This is black & white, there is no gray area. Again, this is the position a true, born again Christian takes. U.S. polls by Gallup show only 45% of Americans would be willing vote for a presidential candidate who is atheist. When pollsters turned the question around, more than half admitted they would actually refuse to vote for an atheist. Bottom line is Obama is very wishy washy about his stance on being a Christian.

MWB- I DON'T KNOW IF HE WILL BE THE BEST....I only meant... who knows? he may be the best one we've had ... we just have to wait and find out.

[jake-the-peg]

You know USAlady you might want to have a think about that "True Christian" thing.

There was No New Testament when Jesus walked the earth. It's a combination of books and a lot of people sat around and had to decide what was in and what was out.

Add to that there are some interesting discrepancies, silly little things for example

Mark 5:1-2 tells of Jesus being met by one man possessed by an unclean spirit. But, the parallel passage in Matthew 8:28 tells us that there were two with unclean spirits.

Then Mark 10:46-47 tells us that one blind man Bartimaeus was crying out to Jesus for help. And in Matthew 20:29-30 we read that there were two blind men.

This is without the real heavy stuff which I'm sure Obama was referring to.

[USALady]

Jake....You're entitled to your opinion. If you are not a Christian and have not had Christian teachings then I can understand why you and others think this way.

[jake-the-peg]

Well things like this are not a problem if you think that the bible was written by humans and edited by them and describe events to the best of the ability of those who witnessed them.

However if you truely believe that the bible is the word of God and infalible and perfect you really should read some of those passages together.

This is not big stuff of theology

There's no matter of differing opinions or interpretations

This is counting

I think you'll find that realising that the bible is not perfect has not harmed the faith of millions of Christians around the world.

[Octavius]

Amen to that!

[Davethedog]

Yep Jake its clear to see you have never had any Chritian teaching.

I can see making comparisons between to disparate parts of the Bible was just luck.

:-) :-) :-) ;-)

[naomi24]

USALady, If Obama is not sure all scripture is true, he sounds like a very sensible man to me. I don�t know if you�ve read the bible, or whether you simply take instruction from others, but if you read it for yourself you will find that it contains a great many inconsistencies. Matthew and Luke don�t even agree on the circumstances of Christ�s birth, so how can anyone possibly claim that every word is true? They can�t both be right.

[USALady]

naomi...please expand/explain on how Matthew and Luke cannot even agree on the birth of Christ.

[naomi24]

USALady, This is probably the easiest way to show you some of the discrepancies in the two accounts - but it's there in the bible if you want to read it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nativity_of_Jesus

As for the supposed census, this is thought to apply to the census of Quinarius in 6AD, but since King Herod died in 4AD, the story doesn't add up. In short, the stories are fabricated, and they�re fabricated to justify the prophecies made in the Old Testament.

I don't for one moment deny that a man called Jesus existed, but I believe he was nothing more than a man. Ancient prophesy declared that the Messiah would be born of the House of David, and if you consider that prophesy to have been fulfilled, then you must concede that Jesus's father was not God, but Joseph, a descendant of the House of David. Additionally, remember that Jesus wasn't a Christian, and neither were his disciples - they were Jews. Christianity didn�t exist. Jesus was a devout Jew - a rabbi - who told his followers to keep the law - and for a Jew that means Jewish law. He had no intention of becoming the figurehead for a new religion, which was instigated and constructed by St Paul, a man Jesus never met, and it was further warped by various councils of men several hundred years after the event. In my opinion, Jesus has been appallingly and disgracefully misrepresented by Christianity, and I feel very sorry for him.

Having said all that, there�s nothing wrong in following his advice to love one another. That�s all the world needs. x

[USALady]

naomi, Thank you for your explanation, however, I stand by what I believe. I respect you and everyone else's opinions or views on this subject. We just have very different views on it. Love one another is what we should be doing on a daily basis. xxxooo

[naomi24]

USALady, you say we just have different views on this subject, but we have not given you our 'views'. Apart from my reference to Jesus concerning his parentage and his intentions, these are not simply opinions. You have been offered incontrovertible proof in black and white, and from your own manual, that 2+2 = 4, and yet you still insist that 2+2 = 5. I am at a loss to understand how you are able to continue to rationalise within your own mind your contention that that the bible is accurate in every respect when quite clearly it is not. It's impossible for two conflicting statements to be correct, and so unless you are content to ignore the facts, and in effect, lie to yourself, then, logically, you must concede that one of those statements is false and therefore your views must change. Can you explain your rationale?

If you want further evidence that the bible is contradictory, look here.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/paul_ca rlson/nt_contradictions.html

[USALady]

naomi,,,,just wanted to let you know I saw and acknowledge your remarks; however, I have a daughter who was admitted to the hospital this weekend so I have no time right now to address it. Will get back to you soon, hopefully! Take care xxxooo

[naomi24]

USALady, thank you for taking the time to get back especially at such a difficult time. I'm sorry to hear your daughter is unwell, and I hope she makes a very speedy recovery. x

[USALady]

naomi: My daughter is on the mend after having surgery & pnuemonia following it.

If you read the Bible at face value without a preconceived bias for finding errors, you will find it to be a coherent, consistent, and relatively easy-to-understand book. Yes, there are difficult passages. Yes, there are verses that appear to contradict each other. We must remember that the Bible was written by approximately 40 different authors over a period of around 1500 years. Each writer wrote with a different style, from a different perspective, to a different audience, for a different purpose. We should expect some differences! However, a difference is not a contradiction. It is only an error if there is absolutely no conceivable way the verses or passages can be reconciled. Even if an answer is not available right now, that does not mean an answer does not exist. Many have found a supposed error in the Bible in relation to history or geography only to find out that the Bible is correct once further archaeological evidence is discovered.

People claim to not believe in God because it is �not scientific� or �because there is no proof.� The true reason is that once people admit that there is a God, they also must realize that they are responsible to God and in need of forgiveness from Him (Romans 3:23; 6:23). If God exists, then we are accountable for our actions to Him. If God does not exist, then we can do whatever we want without having to worry about God judging us. That is why evolution is so strongly clung to by many in our society�to give people an alternative to believing in a Creator God. God exists and ultimately everyone knows that He exists. The very fact that some attempt so aggressively to disprove His existence is in fact an argument for His existence.

****continued****

[USALady]

***continued*** The Bible tells us that people will reject the clear and undeniable knowledge of God and instead believe a lie. Romans 1:25 declares, �They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator�who is forever praised. Amen.� The Bible also proclaims that people are without excuse for not believing in God, �For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities�His eternal power and divine nature�have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse� (Romans 1:20).
We know that God is real because He has revealed Himself to us in three ways: in creation, in His Word, and in His Son, Jesus Christ.
The most basic proof of God�s existence is simply what He has made. �For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities�his eternal power and divine nature�have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse� (Romans 1:20). �The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.� (Psalm 19:1).
We know that God is real because He has revealed Himself to us in three ways: in creation, in His Word, and in His Son, Jesus Christ.
The most basic proof of God�s existence is simply what He has made. �For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities�his eternal power and divine nature�have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse� (Romans 1:20). �The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.� (Psalm 19:1).
***continued****

[USALady]

***continued*** Allow one last argument for God�s existence. How do we know God exists? As Christians, we know God exists because we speak to Him every day. We do not audibly hear Him speaking back to us, but we sense His presence, we feel His leading, we know His love, we desire His grace. Things have occurred in our lives that have no other possible explanation other than God. God has so miraculously saved us and changed our lives that we cannot help but to acknowledge and praise His existence. None of these arguments in and of themselves can persuade anyone who refuses to acknowledge what is so plainly clear. In the end, God�s existence must be accepted by faith (Hebrews 11:6). Faith in God is not a blind leap into the dark; it is safe step into a well-lit room where 90% of people are already standing.

[USALady]

naomi: also wanted to thank you for your kind words regarding my daughter's illness.

[WaldoMcFroog]

USALady, you claim to understand why people 'cling' to evolution as though it is an alternative to believing in God. How then do you explain the enormous numbers of religious people who believe in evolution and God? The notion that evolution is inherantly atheistic is plain wrong and the fact that most atheists would accept it is neither here nor there. Most of us accept gravity too, but I don't see anyone throwing their toys out of the pram over that.

Also plain wrong are your assertations that the Bible contains no errors in the Bible. I'm actually currently re-reading the Bible from start to finish and Genesis alone is riddled with errors, contradications and out and out absurdity.

By the way, this creation you claim is obviously the work of a deity? It isn't obvious in the slightest.