Go Muslims!

[JockSporran]

Islam encourages righteousness and opposes evil. It supports traditional family values and stands against promiscuity and immorality. We need something to fill the spiritual and moral void here, so I respect Islam. Do I have a point?

[JockSporran]

There are plenty of atheists who show hatred and intolerance towards ALL religions, chas.

[naomi24]

Hello Jock, It does? Well, it certainly doesn�t embrace family values that I would want my family to emulate, but I suppose it depends on your interpretation of family values. If you�re happy with the subjugation of women, with arranged marriages between people who have never met, and the indoctrination of children with antiquated, superstitious, claptrap, then, yes, you have a point.

With reference to your second post, whilst I don�t hate anyone, I despise religion, and I�m appalled by the effect that religion has on the mind of the indoctrinated. As a parent, I�ve succeeded beyond my wildest expectations, and all without religion, so how do you explain that?

And incidentally, the intolerance of some atheists towards all religions doesn�t negate the intolerance of Islam, and nor does it excuse the atrocities perpetrated in the name of Islam, which was the point that Charliechan was making.

[JockSporran]

Death is the oasis for all unbelievers!

[naomi24]

I think you've just proven my point about the effect that religion has on the mind of the indocrinated, Jock - but it's not an answer to my post.

[keyplus90]

Subjugation of woman? Yes Islam subjugate Woman as Arabs who used to bury their daughters alive stopped doing that once accepted Islam. Yes Islam subjugate woman as according to Muhammad (pbuh) paradise lies under the feet of mother. Yes Islam subjugate woman because according to Muhammed (pbuh) even if someone brings the wealth of all of the universe still he can not pay for the 9 months mother carried him in her womb with all the difficulties. Yes Islam subjugate even old parents as they not leave their parents in old people homes to die where you go only once a year on mothers day and say �Mum I love you�. Of course it is oppression and subjugation.

Arranged marriage, Yes most of the Asians (not only Muslims) have arranged marriages. I met English girl and before marrying her I asked my parents permission as respect. They agreed and it became arranged marriage. Now if we ever have arguments between us then parents intervene and gives us good advice and perhaps that is the reason of lowest divorce rate in those countries because marriage is not between two people only but a respected relation between two families. Of course arranged marriage as people know here has no place in Islam.

[JockSporran]

At least in Muslim countries they don't have couples shacking up together with no intention of ever getting married, they don't have unmarried mothers (except widows), and they don't have children born out of wedlock. In British society we are beginning to live like pigs and it is seen as progress.

[dabees]

"There are plenty of atheists who show hatred and intolerance towards ALL religions, chas."

Show me evidence of any atrocity carried out in the name of atheism!

[Ice.Maiden]

Well weren't witches drowned and burnt at the stake for not adhering to Puritanical ideas?
I have slight sympathy for what Jock's just said. Some Muslim ideas might do well to be introduced back into the British way of life - family values, manners, respect.

[fabioburke]

keyplus90,with your sarcastic answer you have highlighted a tiny few of the benefits of islamic family life.Certain Christians will find it hard to get their head round most of the rest :multiple wives,one rule for the female and another set for the male,severe punishments on females for adultery yet males are exempt.Surely thats not equality which is the way forward.
But most of all you are assuming that people outide the Islamic culture all put their parents in homes and see them once a year.What a sweeping generalisation and not at all true.

[tamborine]

Not my traditional family values?

Having lots of children without a care for their 'quality of life'? Having more than one wife?
Arranged marriages rather than choice?
Forcing women into burkhas for ones own deliction & control?
Forcing under-age females into intercourse & servitude?

[mibn2cweus]

Aside from the teachings of religion masquerading as a moral code, one problem with substituting religion for the development of a rational morality is that this tends to perpetuate the problem, passing it on much like a malignant cancerous genetic deformity from one generation to the next.

It is a rational respect for oneself built upon a recognition of the need to understand reality and obey its laws that points out the path to the development of a rational moral code that one can appreciate and willingly choose to follow simply for the benefits to be derived in doing so.

There is no substitute for learning and knowing right from wrong through understanding the long range consequences of ones choices and actions. Realising our potential to comprehend and conform to the reality we have no choice but to live within is the only hope for those seeking to fill the moral and spiritual void that separates us from a respect for and the reward of happiness that is the consequence of embracing and achieving our own humanity.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, this is what your manual for life says about the subjugation of women. 'Men have authority over women, because God has made one superior to the other. Good women are obedient. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them, forsake them in beds apart, and beat them. Then if they obey you take no further action against them.'

Jock, Perhaps you'd like the west to follow Islam even further and make it lawful for a man to marry more than one woman? That would boost the marriage statistics.

Incidentally, you haven't answered my question, and I've asked a similar one on another thread that remains unanswered.

[Gromit]

There is plenty of subjugating of women in the Bible...

If however the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death
Deuteronomy 22:13-2

Women should remain silent in churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission
Corinthians 14:34

Wives submit to your husbands, as is fitting to the Lord.�
Colossians 3:18

There are many more.

[Gromit]

The charge of

the indoctrination of children with antiquated, superstitious, claptrap...

Is true of any religion. Church run Sunday schools were around for a hundred years. Church run playgroups are indoctrinating children with christianity as we speak.

[naomi24]

Everything you say is absolutely true, Gromit, but we are talking about Islam here - and apart from that, one does not negate the other.

[LazyGun]

You have a point Jock - just not a very good one. Using religious manuals drawn up in stoneage times as some form of moral compass for today is anachronistic and wrong. Life, society and culture have all changed out of all recognition from those simpler days.
Truth,and codes of behaviour, are not moral absolutes - but those who let a religion decide their morals for them believe otherwise.
You and your fellow travellers want us all to live a life circumscribed and made small and petty, by slavishly following rules based on interpretations of texts thousands of years old - Women in particular suffer in this regard. - I say, let in the new, embrace the different, and on with the antic pants.

[Gromit]

Touch� naomi24

Let's ban the lot.

[naomi24]

That's the best idea you've had all day, Gromit. :o)