When Atheism becomes inhumane

[naomi24]

I spent a couple of hours today with a very dignified elderly gentleman who told me practically his life history. Brought up in an orphanage, adopted, and subsequently dreadfully mistreated, he left home at 15 to make his own way in the world. He survived a broken marriage, married again, and is now settled, very respectable, and reliant upon his faith to sustain him psychologically. He is aware of my complete and utter disdain for organised religion, but I have to say I was gentle with him because how can I, as someone who cares desperately about the plight of humanity, justify demolishing with reasoned and demonstrably provable argument this man's very personal shelter from the harshness of reality? Fellow atheists - please - tell me.

[standian]

The battle of the Big~enders and Little~enders rages on....................

[trish1234567]

Firstly Naomi, why and when should atheism be considered ‘inhumane‘?
Secondly, why cannot this elderly gentleman just be aware of your ‘disbelief’
for organised religion if you consider he needs to have this knowledge regarding yourself. Thirdly, “he is reliant upon his faith to sustain him psychologically, etc.” - “you were gentle with him, etc.” what arrogance! Am I glad I’m not your other next door neighbour.
From an atheist who considers it kinder to say “I’m a non-believer”.

[hc4361]

naomi, you misunderstand me.
I have no religious faith, but I find it abhorrent that you consider yourself 'gentle' by trying to convince a gentleman his religious opion is wrong. You must be arrogant to try, and smug to think you are somehow superior to him by not sharing his faith.

I suggest you go out on a freezing night and tell the Salvation Army they are wrong in their beliefs when they are out on the soup run for the homeless, or providing hot drinks and blankets for those affected by fire or flood.

There are many such believers of many faiths doing tireless and thankless works without reward or recognition.
Just as there are atheists carrying on with their good works, quietely, without the need to preach at people.

[mibn2cweus]

It seems we have an innate desire, if not a need, to feel that we are useful and of some value to those around us. Among those who have lost or never achieved as sense of self-worth, many attempt to compensate by pretending that they are one of God's indispensable foot-soldiers in the cause of rescuing lost souls from eternal damnation. How do you propose to argue against that? What do you have to offer them in exchange for a battered and bruised ego, when reason and self-worth have long ceased to be options they would consider? Having already committed intellectual and spiritual suicide do you really think they need your assistance to finish the job?

When it has become quite apparent that one has consigned their mind and spirit to religion, leaving a zombie where a corpse would be more appropriate, leave them to it and let religion dispose of the remains as well.

[jomifl]

That's exactly what I would have said if I'd thought of it Mib. They do cheer up christmas though and we wouldn't have any chinese toys to buy so perhaps I wouldn't have(said) if I had (thought of it that is)

[naomi24]

This is getting really silly.

hc4361, your appalling rudeness renders it impossible for anyone to misunderstand you. However, in your abject ignorance you clearly don't realise that you are preaching to the converted.

Trish, //why cannot this elderly gentleman just be aware of your ‘disbelief’//. The answer to that is because he takes great pleasure in discussing my non-belief. That is what he wants to do. If you had taken the trouble to read what I've written instead of immediately assuming the moral high ground you would have avoided making a fool of yourself.

Thanks for your opinions Wyz and Mibs. With a good proportion of the contributors consistently failing to understand the question, let alone the circumstances, some intelligent debate this turned out to be. R&S isn't a patch on it's previous self, and I think in this particular instance it might be just as well to abandon this discussion right now. How very slow the sanctimonious are to comprehend - but how very quick to condemn. And they tell me I'm arrogant? Just as well I have a sense of humour and a practically infinite ability to suffer fools - even if not always terribly gladly. ;o)

Night all.

[jomifl]

Naomi ...hc has a valid point, not at all appallingly rude. If you read your own posts you might see a similarity with some of the posts by religious zealots.

[ludwig]

There's alot of pompous indignation going on from people who don't have the full facts of what was said, the manner in which it was said, how it was received, the nature of the relationship etc etc.

I'm not sure what the argument's about anyway as everyone seems to be in agreement with the basic principle that there's a time to hold back on your views and a time to give them full vent.

What's going on with the 'answers removed' by the way? someone said it was going to happen and then it did, but they weren't partcularly abusive or anything - am I missing something?

[wildwood]

Some of the saddest deaths I know of are 'cot death' where innocent babies die of unexplained reasons. As a realist I am amazed at the comfort some people find in their faith at those sad times. I would question my god for a reason but a faithful one excepts this unexplained demise as his will and indeed finds solace in their religious support. It would be inhumane to try and dispel anyone's faith as such times.

A family friend has experienced such a sad occasion and I just didn't understand why she could still be faithful after loosing her grandson in such manner. It made me hate her religious idol but she found acceptance. Go figure.

[naomi24]

jomifl, are you sure you reading the same posts I'm reading? If you are, then your standards - and hc's - are very clearly somewhat different to mine. Yes, I am zealous, but unlike the religious, my passion emanates from rationality and therefore I am zealous for rather more logical reasons. As I said before unlike believers and their apologists, I find it impossible to accept or to justify the crimes that religion commits against humanity. I simply don't understand how any compassionate, caring, human being can justify it - and frankly I sincerely hope I never will. While people continue in their self-righteous efforts to be seen to empathise with the indefensible, this world will never be a better place. However, that isn't the intended subject of this discussion.

Ludwig, you are spot on. Hard work isn't it. Haa!

The answers are removed because the contributor was someone who's banned (or suspended) but sneaks back under different names and gets caught again. I don't think he can be very good at it. :o)

Wildwood, yep!

[jackthehat]

Isn't it strange ?

I've read the very same words as the rest of you but seem to be understanding something completely different..............nothing to get as cross as some, at any rate !

[ummmm]

Same here Jack...

It's even be discussed on another website :-)

[naomi24]

Yes Jack, very strange indeed. ;o)

Ha ha! Mentioned in dispatches again. How funny! Fame at last! :o) Thanks ummmm. x

[Nadis]

I don't understand Naomi? You had a lengthy chat with a gentleman, he told you his beliefs, He knows your stand on religion. But you want atheists to tell you how they would have approached a similar conversation with the man or how could they put it in a better way to hypothetically sway this man's belief to make him realise it's pitfalls.
Is that about right?
I think that was very rude of you with your intelligence remark.
Okay, so I am not as clever as you. There is no need to insult people.
Maybe I shouldn't ask anything because I can't match your intellectual status.
Happy New Year

[wolf63]

I am not a religious person - not sure if I am agnostic or an atheist. I don't suppose it really matters.

I think that life is a bit like climbing a cliff - you reach out for whatever hand hold you can grasp and also trust to help you and support you when you need it. Every so often we stop and look around and maybe give another person some help or support. At the end of the day we all get to the top of our cliff face and we die.

Does it really matter to anyone other that that climber what the hand holds really are and how they got there? They can be 'made' - does it really matter than some people chose to use religion are a way of helping them through life?



*

[starone]

Well said wolfie. I'm surprised this thread is still going.

[Nadis]

No you can't justify demolishing this man's personal shelter unless at his tender age, you think it's going to do him any good or he wants you to help him change.

[naomi24]

Nadis, one of your replies to me was....

//Oh I see Naomi, so you don't want to change the gentleman's belief or tell him what he should or shouldn't have faith in?//,

....so exactly which bit of...

//I have no intention of persuading him....//

...don't you understand?

Now, if you want to continue to mope miserably around R&S with a permanent little rain cloud hanging over your head being upset, insulted, offended, aggrieved, outraged, miffed, affronted, thorny, downright awkward, petulant, or whatever else you are, that's your choice - it matters not one jot to me - so I'll include you in my wish to everyone for a very Happy New Year anyway.

Thanks for your input everyone - and my best wishes for a happy and healthy New Year.

[Nadis]

So your being gentle with the man seeming he already knew your stance on no belief in religion or God was only an indication to the AB/R&S gang that you had verbally conveyed your views to the point where it wouldn't alter(to some degree) his take on his faith too much but planted a strong enough seed there to give him reason to doubt his belief?
I know you cannot forcibly change the man's belief or even wish to but I can't understand after knowing all you know and the man not wanting to change his ways or belief and knows your views are you asking other people to tell you how they would treat the situation if they were in it. Where would it get you in the end? So it's just for debates sake on here.....Yes?
Thanks for your observation on my way of being.
You are wrong on all accounts and if you continue to call me names because you think it's smart then that is your choice. Albeit not a very nice one.
Is that how you treat people, if they don't fully understand something and want to by asking more questions then you call them names.
Thanks

[naomi24]

Me call you names Nadis? Not at all. That isn't my style. Let me explain. A couple a posts ago you said you were insulted, a day or two ago you said you were upset, you've been offended several times in fairly recent history, so there's no doubt you're aggrieved and affronted, which is clearly making you thorny, downright awkward and petulant. Oh, and with all this apparent outrage you're demonstrating I think it's appropriate for me to add unnecessarily aggressive to the list. Now just stop.