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Is The May's Deal Worse Than The Status Quo?
I watch Jeff Taylor most evenings, he is a trained lawyer and UKIP supporter, occasionally he says things like "in my opinion", but mostly he deals in straight-forward facts.
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But that was remiss of me and I should apologise. It was unfair of me to focus on trying to discredit you with personal attacks and insults. I should rather have concentrated my energy into setting out a stronger case in favour of my viewpoint, taking a leaf from your book.
As I said in my response to Khandro, I expected some abuse. This message board seems to favour slightly more fixed attitudes, not what I expected when I joined what I thought was a group of creative minds more used to the lateral thinking of cryptic crosswords.
I had hoped to gain some reassurance here, however, that my children will thank me someday for choices imposed on them by my generation. Perhaps my error was in thinking such optimism exists anywhere.
As I said in my response to Khandro, I expected some abuse. This message board seems to favour slightly more fixed attitudes, not what I expected when I joined what I thought was a group of creative minds more used to the lateral thinking of cryptic crosswords.
I had hoped to gain some reassurance here, however, that my children will thank me someday for choices imposed on them by my generation. Perhaps my error was in thinking such optimism exists anywhere.
jf85; //My point was that there were many reasons to vote for Brexit but only one to vote against. //
I think there hangs the problem (for me) with that blinkered attitude. By focusing solely on trade and possible short-term financial difficulties, you miss the larger issues. Zacs talks lightly of a nation's sovereignty as though it was of little importance, and it is to some, - there are people who post on here who feel closer to other countries than they do UK. but that aside, the German minister of defence, Ursula von der Leyen, recently said that plans for a European joint military force were "well under way", also well under way are are the plans for the compulsory adoption by all EU members of both the Euro and Schengen.
You may well be sanguine about such matters and think that those concerned are Little Englanders. I most emphatically happen not to.
I think there hangs the problem (for me) with that blinkered attitude. By focusing solely on trade and possible short-term financial difficulties, you miss the larger issues. Zacs talks lightly of a nation's sovereignty as though it was of little importance, and it is to some, - there are people who post on here who feel closer to other countries than they do UK. but that aside, the German minister of defence, Ursula von der Leyen, recently said that plans for a European joint military force were "well under way", also well under way are are the plans for the compulsory adoption by all EU members of both the Euro and Schengen.
You may well be sanguine about such matters and think that those concerned are Little Englanders. I most emphatically happen not to.
Khandro, you have no idea whether the financial difficulties will be short term. The EU army is a pipe dream. There is no cohesive view as to what it should be (despite it being mooted for nearly 70 years). The French and the Germans already have significantly different interpretations of a European army.
As for the Euro, I can find no proof that the EU will force all countries to adopt this.
Talk about project fear in reverse!
You carry on being brainwashed by Brietbart and the likes of Jeff, my friend. I’ll stick to factual evidence.
As for the Euro, I can find no proof that the EU will force all countries to adopt this.
Talk about project fear in reverse!
You carry on being brainwashed by Brietbart and the likes of Jeff, my friend. I’ll stick to factual evidence.
I'm still fairly new to AB and just lost about a thousand words, so you are lucky. I will try to be briefer this time.
Thank you for your reply, Khandro, but I would (predictably) like to offer some alternative views. I did and would not use terms like Little Englanders, with the negative and reductionist connotations. While Inbelieve that there were more than 17 million reasons to vote Leave, I have no reason to think any of them was wrong or deluded. The Remain vote did not have that luxury, but we all voted for things we believed.
I accept the result, but I retain the right to be disappointed with it. Sadly I missed part of Dominic Grieve's interview on Channel 4, but it sounds as if some in Parliament are willing to say the previously unsayable: that there is no Brexit that is good for UK (I am not saying he is right, just that it's the first time I've heard it). I was hurt by your use of 'blinkered', since I keep looking for reassurance that Brexit will work. Aren't the blinkers on those who refuse to share their enlightenment, or automatically dismiss me as a snowflake, leftie liberal vassal of the EU bullies?
I know trade is not everything. I served in our military and was fortunate to work with troops from NATO and the Commonwealth. It is no understatement to say the US mindset is different. I left more than ten years ago, but I do not imagine that six takeaway franchises is no longer their minimum requirement in an operational base that is not actually under fire. Even Canadians are closer to the UK/European model than the US one.
Friends who have gone on to join the police tell me that cooperating on criminal intelligence with our neighbour's is vital. No country's borders are impenetrable. We need to work with EU law enforcement.
Military intelligence is different, but we simply can't be too reliant on the US. We have more in common with the EU in our defence needs, and the US have largely different priorities. I sometimes wonder if it is the numbers that count. The US can afford to sell out their own, like Valerie Plame, or carry idlers like the huge US military can. The EU is our security. We would do better to look to our own defence than assume US support through NATO, even after Trump.
Sovereignty is something close to my heart. I won't go into my history, but I come from a family who have served UK in humble ways. We are not noble by any stretch, but we have shown loyalty and steadfastness. I will not be goaded on it, but I offer a couple of examples of what 'taking back control' means to me.
Are we forced into accepting EU rules? A friend who has a B&B was stunned by the claim. The EU introduced rules to protect holidaymakers from being dumped by failing companies, who can no longer claim to arrange flights, accommodation, transfers and meals but deny being package operators. My friend was impressed, until UK decided to take it further. The B&B can no longer ring for a taxi or a table at a restaurant on behalf of a guest because the UK government, alone in the EU, says they would then be offering packages and would need the same insurance as Tui or Butlins.
I am aware also of the case of the truck mirrors, when Boris Johnson claimed the EU was preventing UK Implementing a simple safety measure. There are two trucking firms based locally, and I have heard from both that UK is actually the blocker.
How are unelected bureaucrats in UK more likely to have my interests at heart than EU ones? Both are civil servants, doing what they are told. UK ones might speak my language but they are just as susceptible to political chicanery. Windrush and Universal Credit scare me more than kinky bananas.
I hope that makes my sanguine (wonderful word) approach the the EU more understandable. Please continue to offer guidance. Maybe I need my tongue splitting or my ears cut off, but I am begging to be proved wrong.
Thank you for your reply, Khandro, but I would (predictably) like to offer some alternative views. I did and would not use terms like Little Englanders, with the negative and reductionist connotations. While Inbelieve that there were more than 17 million reasons to vote Leave, I have no reason to think any of them was wrong or deluded. The Remain vote did not have that luxury, but we all voted for things we believed.
I accept the result, but I retain the right to be disappointed with it. Sadly I missed part of Dominic Grieve's interview on Channel 4, but it sounds as if some in Parliament are willing to say the previously unsayable: that there is no Brexit that is good for UK (I am not saying he is right, just that it's the first time I've heard it). I was hurt by your use of 'blinkered', since I keep looking for reassurance that Brexit will work. Aren't the blinkers on those who refuse to share their enlightenment, or automatically dismiss me as a snowflake, leftie liberal vassal of the EU bullies?
I know trade is not everything. I served in our military and was fortunate to work with troops from NATO and the Commonwealth. It is no understatement to say the US mindset is different. I left more than ten years ago, but I do not imagine that six takeaway franchises is no longer their minimum requirement in an operational base that is not actually under fire. Even Canadians are closer to the UK/European model than the US one.
Friends who have gone on to join the police tell me that cooperating on criminal intelligence with our neighbour's is vital. No country's borders are impenetrable. We need to work with EU law enforcement.
Military intelligence is different, but we simply can't be too reliant on the US. We have more in common with the EU in our defence needs, and the US have largely different priorities. I sometimes wonder if it is the numbers that count. The US can afford to sell out their own, like Valerie Plame, or carry idlers like the huge US military can. The EU is our security. We would do better to look to our own defence than assume US support through NATO, even after Trump.
Sovereignty is something close to my heart. I won't go into my history, but I come from a family who have served UK in humble ways. We are not noble by any stretch, but we have shown loyalty and steadfastness. I will not be goaded on it, but I offer a couple of examples of what 'taking back control' means to me.
Are we forced into accepting EU rules? A friend who has a B&B was stunned by the claim. The EU introduced rules to protect holidaymakers from being dumped by failing companies, who can no longer claim to arrange flights, accommodation, transfers and meals but deny being package operators. My friend was impressed, until UK decided to take it further. The B&B can no longer ring for a taxi or a table at a restaurant on behalf of a guest because the UK government, alone in the EU, says they would then be offering packages and would need the same insurance as Tui or Butlins.
I am aware also of the case of the truck mirrors, when Boris Johnson claimed the EU was preventing UK Implementing a simple safety measure. There are two trucking firms based locally, and I have heard from both that UK is actually the blocker.
How are unelected bureaucrats in UK more likely to have my interests at heart than EU ones? Both are civil servants, doing what they are told. UK ones might speak my language but they are just as susceptible to political chicanery. Windrush and Universal Credit scare me more than kinky bananas.
I hope that makes my sanguine (wonderful word) approach the the EU more understandable. Please continue to offer guidance. Maybe I need my tongue splitting or my ears cut off, but I am begging to be proved wrong.
‘How are unelected bureaucrats in UK more likely to have my interests at heart than EU ones?‘
The leave voters just don’t get it. Perversely they’re usually the ones who are the most critical rather than sanguine (ha ha) about our elected politicians. When I point out they are the very people they have voted to control all our affairs, it’s generally met with ‘well we can vote them out’ presumably based on the premise that there’s a whole bunch of altruistic people, untainted by a sniff of power, waiting in the wings. Delusional.
The leave voters just don’t get it. Perversely they’re usually the ones who are the most critical rather than sanguine (ha ha) about our elected politicians. When I point out they are the very people they have voted to control all our affairs, it’s generally met with ‘well we can vote them out’ presumably based on the premise that there’s a whole bunch of altruistic people, untainted by a sniff of power, waiting in the wings. Delusional.
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