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Where are the Doctors coming from?
20 Answers
Looking at AOG's thread about the girl with 5 A and A* A levels a question comes to mind.
It's always been tough to get into medical school - yes - but if people of this calibre are being turned away it's clearly not because they couldn't do the course.
Yet we are importing large numbers of doctors from abroard
Is this because we don't have enough teaching capacity in the UK?
Or is it because We are training doctors who are hightailing it into the private sector.
Should it be a condition of training in medecine at a British University with state funding that you are obliged to practice in the NHS for X years
Or do we simply need to be training more medics?
It's always been tough to get into medical school - yes - but if people of this calibre are being turned away it's clearly not because they couldn't do the course.
Yet we are importing large numbers of doctors from abroard
Is this because we don't have enough teaching capacity in the UK?
Or is it because We are training doctors who are hightailing it into the private sector.
Should it be a condition of training in medecine at a British University with state funding that you are obliged to practice in the NHS for X years
Or do we simply need to be training more medics?
Answers
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In the past, interviews were far more important to get into medical schools than the results......it was unusual for someone to have straight A's in anything...they didn´t exist.
You needed to pass in 4subjects Chemistry Physics, Zoology and Botany and go for an interview, where you were then selected or otherwise. At the time I entered there were 350 applicants for 60 places and these 60 places were not given necessarily to the top marked candidate, so your girl with 5A´s and the A* (whatever that is) may not have got into medical school 50years ago......so nothing new there.
We do not have enough UK trained doctors because of the lack of places at medical schools.
Private Practice...you build up your Private Practice on the back of your NHS performance.........crap doctor in the NHS....then NO private practice......"hightailing" it doesn´t enter into it.
Enforcing doctors to work in the NHS for a number of years, would bring the Civil Liberties boys down your neck.
Believe me, the British public get their moneys worth from tax funded UK medical training.
You needed to pass in 4subjects Chemistry Physics, Zoology and Botany and go for an interview, where you were then selected or otherwise. At the time I entered there were 350 applicants for 60 places and these 60 places were not given necessarily to the top marked candidate, so your girl with 5A´s and the A* (whatever that is) may not have got into medical school 50years ago......so nothing new there.
We do not have enough UK trained doctors because of the lack of places at medical schools.
Private Practice...you build up your Private Practice on the back of your NHS performance.........crap doctor in the NHS....then NO private practice......"hightailing" it doesn´t enter into it.
Enforcing doctors to work in the NHS for a number of years, would bring the Civil Liberties boys down your neck.
Believe me, the British public get their moneys worth from tax funded UK medical training.
squad a* is the very best you can do, at gcse to get an a* in art you need to get 95% or above on average through your coursework and exams. But this is the first year they've had them at a-level, so that top unis can pick out the very top people.
But it is pretty unbelievable you can egt grades that good and not get a place, did she not get a place in any uni or just not her first choice?
But it is pretty unbelievable you can egt grades that good and not get a place, did she not get a place in any uni or just not her first choice?
sandy....an interesting point. Nepotism did play a part, but not in my case.
My friend was Prof of Medicine at Manchester and Dean of the Medical School and some 30 years ago it was felt that academic attainment was to be the guideline rather than being good at sport and the interview. For a decade and a half certain students were elected on interview and sporting attainment and half were not interviewed but admitted solely on exam results. There was no difference, perhaps slightly in favour of nepotism and sport..........they have now gone back to the interview system
My friend was Prof of Medicine at Manchester and Dean of the Medical School and some 30 years ago it was felt that academic attainment was to be the guideline rather than being good at sport and the interview. For a decade and a half certain students were elected on interview and sporting attainment and half were not interviewed but admitted solely on exam results. There was no difference, perhaps slightly in favour of nepotism and sport..........they have now gone back to the interview system
A good friend of mine is a retired GP. On his own admission he wasn't a star academically but performed well at interview and as he played first XV rugby for Wasps was seen as a good catch by his med school. In my view he was a perfect example of why academic excellence was secondary to his qualities as a human being etc. Mind you he qualified back in 1950.
When my gall-bladder was staggering to a halt, the surgeon at BVH, at first, put me on his list.........12 months away. A hospitalisation or two later, I was fast-tracked down to 9 months.
I rang the BUPA hospital and was told that for the sum of £4000, that very same surgeon would be able to fit me in 3-weeks hence........
I thought the over-riding concern of the medics was the welfare of their patients ?
"I swear by Apollo, the healer.........." and all that.
I rang the BUPA hospital and was told that for the sum of £4000, that very same surgeon would be able to fit me in 3-weeks hence........
I thought the over-riding concern of the medics was the welfare of their patients ?
"I swear by Apollo, the healer.........." and all that.
Sqad, an airline that I won`t mention had a lot of new pilot cadets and then the Gulf War struck. The trainees were told they could take a temporary cabin crew contract, or go off to work of another airline for a while. They were free to go (mostly abroad) but if they didn`t come back when recalled they would have to pay back the £60,000 it cost to train them. Needless to say they all came back :)
JTH.....the Hippocratic Oath is not taken by doctors.
Private Practice has been allowed by both Political persuasions in an effort to keep the best doctors. So...a Consultant can legally have two practices, his NHS practise and his Private practice. I might point out that to do private practice one has to take a drop in salary, but maintain the same commitments in the NHS. How would a trades unionist respond to a fall in salary, but same workload?
NHS waiting lists are long...........not the fault of the Consultant.
Private Practice waiting lists are small.......not the fault of the Consultant.
Emergencies are dealt with immediately whether Private or NHS
Private Practice has been allowed by both Political persuasions in an effort to keep the best doctors. So...a Consultant can legally have two practices, his NHS practise and his Private practice. I might point out that to do private practice one has to take a drop in salary, but maintain the same commitments in the NHS. How would a trades unionist respond to a fall in salary, but same workload?
NHS waiting lists are long...........not the fault of the Consultant.
Private Practice waiting lists are small.......not the fault of the Consultant.
Emergencies are dealt with immediately whether Private or NHS
Lets think about what the interview process is trying to achieve.
People are trying to assess whether someone would be up to the job in practice.
I don't think we're wondering about whether they can hack the academic nature of the course these sort of A level results demonstrate that.
There are however other questions about whether someone would be psycologically able to cope with the job. Would you crack up the first time someone you've been treting dies for example.
Seems to me that an interview is likely to be a poor way to determine that - likely to be somewhat arbitary.
Perhaps a psycological evaluation would be a better way.
Incidently I don't buy sqad's assertion about civil liberties ant tying people to contracts. My Company and many others offer training that requires those who leave the company to repay if they depart within a certain timeframe.
I don't see a lot of lawyers protesting it.
I don't however know what the loss rate of UK trained doctors out of the NHS is whether or not it is a significant problem or whether sqads simple assertion that there's not enough bandwidth is true.
There is some research here
http://www.bma.org.uk...y/nhsissuesfaqs.jsp#2
That seems a bit old but suggests that 15 percent of doctors left the NHS after 2 years although over half of those were dissatisfied with medicine as a career
That would tend to suggest (if it's still acurate) that there isn't such a problem with "hightailing"
Perhaps we need more teaching hospitals
People are trying to assess whether someone would be up to the job in practice.
I don't think we're wondering about whether they can hack the academic nature of the course these sort of A level results demonstrate that.
There are however other questions about whether someone would be psycologically able to cope with the job. Would you crack up the first time someone you've been treting dies for example.
Seems to me that an interview is likely to be a poor way to determine that - likely to be somewhat arbitary.
Perhaps a psycological evaluation would be a better way.
Incidently I don't buy sqad's assertion about civil liberties ant tying people to contracts. My Company and many others offer training that requires those who leave the company to repay if they depart within a certain timeframe.
I don't see a lot of lawyers protesting it.
I don't however know what the loss rate of UK trained doctors out of the NHS is whether or not it is a significant problem or whether sqads simple assertion that there's not enough bandwidth is true.
There is some research here
http://www.bma.org.uk...y/nhsissuesfaqs.jsp#2
That seems a bit old but suggests that 15 percent of doctors left the NHS after 2 years although over half of those were dissatisfied with medicine as a career
That would tend to suggest (if it's still acurate) that there isn't such a problem with "hightailing"
Perhaps we need more teaching hospitals
No, Jake. What we need is a better education system and an examination system that sorts out the wheat from the chaff more effectively that the current A-Levels do.
A system where less than 3% fail and where more than 25% achieve the top grade is of no use to employers or universities. In 1965 only 8% of entrants gained the top grade. A leading Sussex College has, for the past ten years offered A-Levels and the International Baccalaureate to its students. In that time top grades in A-Levels have doubled whilst those in the IB have remained the same.
It is obvious that universities offering “hard” subjects cannot rely on A-Level achievements to assess the ability of their potential students and they have to find alternatives. The students, the universities, employers and the taxpayer all deserve something better.
A system where less than 3% fail and where more than 25% achieve the top grade is of no use to employers or universities. In 1965 only 8% of entrants gained the top grade. A leading Sussex College has, for the past ten years offered A-Levels and the International Baccalaureate to its students. In that time top grades in A-Levels have doubled whilst those in the IB have remained the same.
It is obvious that universities offering “hard” subjects cannot rely on A-Level achievements to assess the ability of their potential students and they have to find alternatives. The students, the universities, employers and the taxpayer all deserve something better.
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