Is there a god?

[LeedsRhinos]

Is there a god? I mean look at all the different relgions around the world who all believe that THEY are right & the others are wrong. They can't all be right can they. Which is why in my opion it all rubbish.

[anniep34]

The reply to that is that we have to have faith in something we cannot see, but just know that it is there. Take the oxygen we need to breathe in order to live. We cannot see it in the air, but we inhale all the same expecting that it is indeed there for us to use. The same goes for wind. We cannot actually physically see it, but we do see what it does when it is in motion. What do you think the chances are of us being the only planet in this entire universe of billions of stars etc, that was "accidently" created by the big bang theory?

[el duerino]

eh? scientists are discovering new planets all the time, we have only just developed the optics good enough to spot them at however many million light years away? That completely ignores the issue of why there would be so many stars if we only need one anyway. I suggest you get your scientific facts right before jumping the gun. I am a little disappointed by the rather weak but never ending comparisons between an all powerful being, and something which we cannot 'see'. I can't see oxygen, but I need it to live. I can't see wind, but it blows down tress and houses. I can't see sound, but you can still hear it. It's a nonsensical comparison and the people who make it have clearly and rather obviously never thought it through. Now, what are the chances of an all powerful being who has existed since before the beginning and who made us from dust, who lovingly cares for each and every one of us, what are the chances you have never proved his existence in the same way these phenomena have been? You can't see him, you can't hear him, you can't touch him, you can't smell him, you sure as hell can't taste him, AND YET, you believe he exists. That's not faith, that's denying the reality of the situation. If you had been brought up in a hindu country, you would all be hindus, you have been conditioned by the religious brainwashing and the relentless baa-ing of the masses who cling to a reality they have never, ever, experienced.

[sismitch]

Open your eyes people! The proof of God's existence is all around you! Take the sunset for instance, who could make such a beautiful image? You know, no two of them are alike. I'll tell you what, it wasn't by no scientic phenomenon. It was God. Oh by the way el duerino, what's wrong with quoting your Sunday school teacher? Cause I am still in Sunday school. Yep, that's right y'all being preached to by a 17 year old girl! And by the way, faith is supre-rational, which means that it is above reason. So all y'all that are rational are screwed when it comes to God.

[el duerino]

are you serious? I actually feel sorry for you sismitch. You have obviously never had the upbringing or intelligence to question views which you have held since you were how old? So now you have admitted faith is irrational, what is next? By the way, exactly what is faith based on if not rationality? And how then do you distinguish between the various world religions, which you have obviously at your tender age taken the time to investigate? By the way, assuming your conclusion is only an argument that convinces sheep and rather stupid people. e.g. everyday, me and my ancestors make another moon which we throw into the sky at night. You see the moon, therefore what I say is true. It's using your conclusion to make an argument. It works in sunday school but not for anyone with a shred of intelligence I'm afraid sismitch.

[sismitch]

Hey el duerino! Read over my previous answer carefully. Now, I never said that faith is irrational, I said it was supre-rational. This means above reason. And there has been many times that I have doubted the existence of God. But through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, I have found myself always coming to realize that the only explanation for all creation is God. Now I have some questions for you el duerino. What makes you think there is no God? How do you think you came about? And why do you feel sorry for me, when I should be feeling sorry for you, a wandering sheep. I will pray for you! God bless y'all!

[verbiphobe]

Why are children dying of starvation in Africa while the rich are dying of gluttony in the "developed" world? If there is a God he has nothing to do with compassion.

[el duerino]

ah another old favourite, shifting the burden of proof. Well I'm sorry I don't play that game. There is NO evidence that god exists, and he cannot be proved rationally as you say. The onus lies on you to prove his existence, not the other way around. The accepted state of the universe does not include an all powerful deity at the moment. Nothing arouses my contempt as much as walking in and seeing a bunch of people, heads bowed, whispering away. It's a feel good factor for people who simply cannot be bothered to actually help. 'Oh I prayed for the earthquake victims today' 'Oh I sent �20, apparently that will buy much needed supplies and probably save lives. next time, why don't you pray the freakin earthquake doesn't happen idiot.' lol I am as open minded as the next person, and as much as anyone else would love to cling to false truths. However, if your god exists and loves me, and wishes me to join him in heaven, he will know exactly what is required to convert me. A personal sign I have in my head. If he doesn't, he doesn't want me to believe, he doesn't love me, and he wants to send me to hell. He knows this will happen if the sign is not given. Now sismitch, you sound like one of those annoying southern bible belt people. How old were you when you were told about god? I'm willing to bet that you have been severely indoctrinated into the church from a very young age, something which I detest. You probably didn't even learn about other religions until you were how old?

[verbiphobe]

God is the immemorial refuge of the incompetent, the helpless, the miserable.They find not only sanctuary in his arms, but also a kind of superiority, soothing to their macerated egos;He will set them above their betters. H.L. Mencken."Minority Report" (1956). From "The International Thesaurus of Quotations" Penguin Books.(1970)

[sismitch]

God loves us so much that he gave us free will, which is allowing some people to deny Him. God wants humans to choose Him freely, and doesn't want to force Himself on us. Man cannot be free to love God without having, at the same time, the freedom to reject Him. Unfortunately, with this freedom comes the possibility of evil, which God hates but allows. Now God has one ultimate will, but this will is expressed in two ways: His positive will and His passive will. His positive will is what brings about all the good that we see. His passive will allows evil to happen, but only because God intends to bring abouta greater good from it. Evil happens because of man's free choices. One final point. God understands our suffering through the suffering of Jesus Christ on the cross. We can link our sufferings with the sufferings of Jesus on the cross, thus, offer them up as gifts to the Father.

[sismitch]

Hey el duerino! I am not from the South. However, I am from Southern Illinois, and darn proud of it! And if I told you any more about me people could track me down. And I would also appreciate it if I could post an answer without being insulted for once! Thanks! Now I have known about God for as long as I can remember. And I have learned about many religions through my studies like: Judism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddism, Atheism, and Christianity. Actually, this year has been a real eye opener for me, spiritually speaking. I really have learned a lot about my faith that I never knew through a cable station, EWTN. I have choosen my faith, and I am going to stick to it the rest of my life. As for stopping your little earthquake. What so you think we are? Futureseers? God doesn't plan things like this, he isn't "in time"(He is eternal and timeless). He dosn't know in advance what will happen. He simply knows what is happening, for every moment is equally "now" to the Eternal God -past, present, and future. It is easier for our limited minds to think of God as knowing the future. This doesn't mean that what happens isn't influenced by prayer. For God not only knows what will happen tomorrow but He also knows your prayer and can allow it to influence the outcome of things just as He allows your other actions to shape events. God does love you el duerino, but that doesn't mean you'll go to heaven. Lets say that a parent who loves a teenager too much to let him live a destructive life may kick the teen out of the house. If the teen seeks forgiveness, he will be allowed back. However, God does not kick us out of heaven. We choose to be seperated from him. Hopefully this helps demostrate the point how God does not force salvation on us. He gives us free will to accept or reject his love.

[el duerino]

except rejection results in eternal suffering? what would say if you read in the paper about a parent who had laid a set of rules for his children. He didn't 'enforce' the rules, but if the children broke them, he threw them in the cellar until they apologised and admitted they were not worthy to be in his house. I would say that man was a *******. I would say god, if he exists, is a *******. What you have stumbled across is the problem from evil and free will. However, you also claim in your post that God allows us to influence the world around us through prayer. However, if He allows this, then we no longer have free will. We live in the physical world, we affect it and it affects us. Altering the course of natural events in this world is a violation of free will. If we don't have free will, why is there evil? Either prayer is useless, or we have no free will in the true sense of the word. I find it strange that you admit god cannot see into the future, although this is another defined philosophical problem with an omnipotent god - if he can see into the future, then in a sense our actions are predetermined, and again we have no free will. Your argument that god exists now in all times is irrelevant, because for us that is the future.

[el duerino]

The point re the earthquake; this is an alternative problem from that of evil. evil requires free will, natural disaster which cause pain and suffering do not, therefore god could quite easily have made a world in which natural disasters do not occur. Some more questions about god you say you have been guided back to god by the holy spirit. at what point would you say this becomes a violation of free will? a guide or a compulsion? you go or you dont, you dont need a 'guide'. If you need a guide, why dont i get one? i have turned from god, wheres my guide? If I told you about a cult, where the members believed they drank the blood and ate the flesh of a living god, would you think it was 2004? Or some prehistoric tribe of ignorant savages? Thinking about it, if we must have freedom to hate in order to love, is the same true of god? If it isn't then he cannot love us as truely as some of you love him? If it is, then god has the capability to hate (you only have to read the old testament to see that), and could be considered imperfect by the standards he has given us? Or is the capability to hate part of being perfect? also, this is not a personal insult, but I would seriously look to broaden your horizons if your main source of knowledge is a self serving and glorifying tv station.

[verbiphobe]

An ox is still an ox, even if driven to Vienna. You're wasting your time El D.

[el duerino]

oh i know that. a refutation of religion through rational argument is about as likely as a deathbed confession from the pope that he likes little boys

[I.R.]

You're right, verbiphobe, an ox is still an ox..... It's really a waste of time trying to convince people like you and el duerino that God exists. I just hope you realise it someday.

[el duerino]

well that convinced me I.R. I simply had no answer to any of your points.

[I.R.]

Aw, come on, el duerino! no need to be so sarcastic!!

[el duerino]

...must.......not..........use.......sarcastic reply........ its all good fun IR ;)

[I.R.]

Your arguments are enlightening, by the way. Never really heard an atheist's views before now (no atheists where I come from, see). Let's just leave it at that, you can't be convinced, and neither can I.

[el duerino]

But what would convince you? Very little I imagine. Having close family members tortured and killed while you had to watch? Some amazingly traumatic experience which altered your belief that no god could possibly wish this? I on the other hand, because of the huge amount of rational and logical evidence against the existence of a supreme being, require only the smallest sign that contravenes this. The argument has pretty much revealed the rational inconsistencies in christianity and many christians beliefs. I ask only the smallest sign in the positive, as i have already said god would know what it was, you ask for much, much more in the negative to disprove him. Therefore even in this situation I believe my personal stance to be more reasonable.