Should he be allowed to go to school with this hairstyle?

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.dailymail....lishment-mohican.html

/// I would feel ridiculous without it, it makes me an individual. All my mates like it and some want it too.' ///

Yes a ridiculous individual it would seem.

[anotheoldgit]

Kromovaracun in this debate is very much in the minority with his views, but having said that put up a very good argument to try and get over his point.

But I am afraid by voluntary entering these personal details of himself, has done very little to defend his argument.

/// I'm 21, gay, and hate children so don't want/have any. But I did have the unenviable experience of being different/unusual at school - and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. ///

By stating he is only 21, makes one presume he has a lot to learn from life, perhaps when he is more mature he will have a different slant on things?

Why he then felt it necessary to state that he was gay and didn't have or want children because he hated them , I just do not know.

He then went onto say "But I did have the unenviable experience of being different/unusual at school - and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy".

If that was so then why is he defending this school boy's right to be 'different/unusual at school'?

[Kromovaracun]

"If that was so then why is he defending this school boy's right to be 'different/unusual at school'? "

Because it's not one that I had, and it's not one that many other schoolchildren have, is the simplest answer. In fact to be quite honest I'm a little horrified about how lacking in empathy grown people seem to be towards schoolchildren who are different.

"By stating he is only 21, makes one presume he has a lot to learn from life, perhaps when he is more mature he will have a different slant on things? "

I had a feeling you'd point this out. My response is that if your/anyone's overwhelming life experience has actually given you a better viewpoint on the issue, then it shouldn't be very hard for you to prove me wrong. In fact it should be a lot easier than, frankly, it has proved to be. Saying that I'm too young is a bit of a cop-out - show me why it means I'm wrong, show me where it's opened up flaws in my argument. Saying I'm young is true, but it doesn't really have any bearing unless you show it to.

I'd also like to point out that while I'm certainly in a minority here, other ABers with dare I say a bit more life experience have argued similarly. An appeal to age on its own is just another form of an appeal to authority - which is typically considered a fallacy, if I remember right.

"
Why he then felt it necessary to state that he was gay and didn't have or want children because he hated them , I just do not know. "

I was effectively asked if I have children myself - I was just responding by outlining the various reasons why I don't.

[sara3]

he's not "different".. he's choosing to stand out from the crowd.

[Kromovaracun]

"
Then as a kid it is better for him to be taught what is expected of him when he enters the job market. "

I responded to this point earlier, but I'll do so again:

1) Our education policy is highly inconsistent here. Many pupils will go onto 6th forms and then to universities with no strict dress code - and of them, you can be sure there's a lot which don't work in that gap. So you have a period of 5/6 years between the end of school and entering the jobs market when no such instilment occurs. This has not done anything to decrease awareness that you can't dress as you like in the jobs market, so far as I can tell.

2) What makes a good employee and what makes a good pupil are not the same. And schools do not just exist to churn out employees - they exist to equip children with what they need for life - both employability skills, some kind of academic awareness and, just as importantly, the means to be happy.

"It's called discipline, something that is lacking in some these days."

Well then 'discipline', under your definition, is pretty much tantamount to a right-wing buzzword for proud intolerance combined with an arbitrary imposition of 'pride' - which as I described earlier is riddled with flaws. Now, I don't believe in abolishing discipline - of course not - but I think you and I have very different definitions of it. And I don't think yours is very consistent with the aims of education I described above.

[Kromovaracun]

"he's not "different".. he's choosing to stand out from the crowd. "

Which is his right as much as it's yours or mine. And he's only standing out from the crowd because we've defined mohawks as weird or outstanding - which is the best way to make it seem like an appealing statement, frankly.

[anotheoldgit]

sara3

/// he's not "different".. he's choosing to stand out from the
crowd. ///

Surely that is a contradictory of terms?

One has to be different to stand out from the crowd.

[anotheoldgit]

Kromovaracun

/// In fact to be quite honest I'm a little horrified about how lacking in empathy grown people seem to be towards schoolchildren who are different. ///

I think you will find that it is schoolchildren themselves who are even more cruel to their own counterparts, than most adults would ever dream of being.

/// on the issue, then it shouldn't be very hard for you to prove me wrong. In fact it should be a lot easier than, frankly, it has proved to be. ///

I think enough on this thread have proven you wrong, but trying to convince someone who is as obstinate as you, is perhaps virtually if not totally impossible to do.

/// I was effectively asked if I have children myself - I was just responding by outlining the various reasons why I don't.///

A simple more to the point answer would have been a simple 'NO'.

[Kromovaracun]

"I think you will find that it is schoolchildren themselves who are even more cruel to their own counterparts, than most adults would ever dream of being. "

Well, that's kind of my point. I'm well aware of how badly schoolchildren treat each other, believe me. I just think that your definition of 'discipline' treats the different extremely callously - it just bullies them from another angle. I question why this is necessary, having been on the receiving end of it myself.

"I think enough on this thread have proven you wrong, but trying to convince someone who is as obstinate as you, is perhaps virtually if not totally impossible to do. "

I'm being obstinate precisely because I don't feel like I've actually been proven wrong anywhere. If I was genuinely convinced by somebody that I was wrong, I'd say so openly. In fact I'm pretty sure I've done this several times on AB in the past. Where have I been proven wrong? Show me, if it's so obvious.

"A simple more to the point answer would have been a simple 'NO'. "

Well, I'm sorry my answer wasn't concise enough for you. But a)nobody seemed to mind until now, b) it wasn't you who asked me or who I was responding to, and c) I like to give reasons for things, so I did.

I notice you haven't responded to the actual thrust of my argument, by the way.

[jackthehat]

It may seem trivial and those lauding the merits of such rules may seem to be pettifogging; but in life he will run up against arbitrary rules and regulations (also perhaps similarly ridiculous) which he 'will' have to abide by; without his Mum and Dad being able to 'take it to the papers'.

I don't, for a single moment, believe that his hair-style will affect his abilities in the classroom, nor those of his class-mates.....and I'm all for the expression of the individual, however, his school have a policy about haircuts and he should abide by it.
The greater question, perhaps, ought to be 'Why does his school have a policy on haircuts?' and why do they believe that the arrangement of the hair on a childs head has some sort of bearing on the rest of his life/behaviour/education?
However, I happen to believe that as there is a rule in place (for whatever reason), it ought to be adhered to.

[vulcan]

Kromovaracum, The basis of your argument is freedom of expression but how far do you allow this in adult life ? The police going in to work, providing it's not raining, in split jeans, trainers and weird hair styles, our prime minister standing at the despatch box in a tee shirt, shorts and sandals ? There has to be standards whether you like it or not and seeing as a lot of parents have abrogated these, school is not a bad place to start.

[pdust]

it would have looked a lot better if it had been in the middle rather to one side... should he be allowed in school with it? i cant see why not, its a hairstyle not something likely to interfere with his or anyone elses learning. I was at the hospital the other day, I saw one woman with really short hair that had pink, yellow and another colour in it... i didnt think for one minute her choice of hair would affect her ability to carry out her job as a paramedic.....

[boxtops]

I've rather lost the drift here - do we know why the parents think he looks so cute with this unappealing hairstyle? I really do think that this is their fault - you don't give that sort of hairstyle to a 5-year-old, unless it's fancy dress.

[Kromovaracun]

"Kromovaracum, The basis of your argument is freedom of expression"

It's freedom point blank, really. But mostly about the arbitrariness and pointlessness of these particular rules.

I actually don't disagree with JTH - I don't necessarily think one should disobey rules if they're there, I just think we have the right to attack them if they seem arbitrary or silly.

"There has to be standards whether you like it or not "

Oh, I agree. The line does need to be drawn, I just think that drawing it in the wrong place is more destructive and stifling than people seem to think - which is why we need to question it.

Regarding your actual question - given that school life represents the absolute totality of what a child's life experience up to that point is, I'm actually not sure that school -is- the best place to start insisting on everyone being the same. It strikes me as a perfect place for questions to be asked about boundaries. There are standards in wider society, yes, but they do vary across it - society as a whole, thankfully, does not really punish you for being different anymore. Or not like it used to anyway.

So if there are different standards for different parts of society/different occupations, I see no reason why children (or adolescents) shouldn't just learn those standards as they come closer to the one that appeals to them most, but maintaining an awareness that people are diverse learned through school. Politicians and businessmen wear suits because they need to convey a specific impression (of professionalism). There's really no good reason why schoolchildren should be arbitrarily forced to do the same if they're not interested.

I'd also add that the non-uniform schools that are widespread in W. Europe don't seem to have imposed some kind of standard-less anarchy in which nobody knows what's appropriate...

[New Judge]

I think this argument has reached its logical conclusion.

It is clear that the two camps will not be reconciled. Personally I believe that school is not the place for pupils or parents to push the boundaries of what is or is not acceptable to those who have been chosen to run schools. Schools have enough trouble educating children as it is. For them to be diverted from that task by this sort of nonsense is a disgraceful waste of resources.

As much as his haircut will not jeopardise his education, neither will keeping it in a style more acceptable to the head. What will jeopardise his education is focussing his attention on this matter instead of settling down to his education. Sometimes children need to learn that occasionally they have to accept regulations without question and I think perhaps this is one of those times.

The boy needs to grow up and so do his parents.

[emmie]

i am amazed the threads still going. The boy needs to cut his hair, fit in with the school requirements, his parents need to stop interfering, and once he has his qualifications and so forth, can then do as he damn well pleases. Probably by that stage he will have grown out of that particular haircut and gone on to something else.

[Kromovaracun]

If people really, really want to draw the line at 'agree to disagree', then personally I think that's something of a cop-out and completely defies the point of debating about these things publicly.

But hey, if that's people want to do, then that's what they want to do.

[New Judge]

You are not going to be persuaded to the contrary point of view, Kromo, and neither am I, em10 or a few others. So we have no option but to agree to disagree.

[seadogg]

Poor lad. With parents like that he need all the support he can get.

[ludwig]

// If people really, really want to draw the line at 'agree to disagree', then personally I think that's something of a cop-out and completely defies the point of debating about these things publicly //

At what point should the debating stop then?

[Kromovaracun]

"
New Judge
You are not going to be persuaded to the contrary point of view, Kromo, and neither am I, em10 or a few others."

I'm quite open to being persuaded, actually - as I say, I'm pretty sure I've openly changed my mind on things quite a few times due to arguments on AB. If I were sincerely convinced by arguments you were making, I promise you I would say so and I wouldn't just keep arguing or ignore it.

"At what point should the debating stop then?"

Ideally? When one side persuades the other. Or sometimes what happens is that people make concessions if they're convinced by them until the two positions become very similar. I don't really see the point in arguing about things on the internet otherwise. I come here to test out my views because if I'm wrong, I want to know about it and improve them.