Will Cameron Fall On His Sword To Save His Party?

[pdq1]

After Nigel Farage UKIP met Rupert Murdoch he proposed that if Cameron was to step down UKIP would merge with the Tory Party giving them on paper a huge majority of voters at the next election.

We all know how leading politicians have such a feeling of self worth they hardly ever put their party first ahead of their own ambitions.

[ichkeria]

Sorry to labour this slightly irrelevant point, but as Zeuhl has hinted, I was actually using the dreaded word "chutzpah" with a certain admiration.

There was a very funny cover on the front of Private Eye a few weeks ago with a grinning Mr Chutzpah outside Number 10, and a speech bubble from within complaining " UKIP! coming over here and taking our jobs"

Except of course that as yet they've not done that ...

[anotheoldgit]

AB Editor

Since you seem to be getting more involved in our debates sir, can I ask you again what is happening about these name changes that still haven't yet taken place?

Sorry to go off track, but I couldn't miss the opportunity.

[emmie]

mine too.... x

[Zeuhl]

/peace is more to do with the nuclear deterrent/

em

you think only nuclear weapons have kept Germany and France at peace?

France and UK are the only European states with nuclear capability

[Noth43]

But Germany et al are members of NATO

[emmie]

i couldn't see France dropping a bomb any day soon, however Russia could.. then that would drag in China, not perhaps a European war, but more a global wipeout. Besides which if you look at the figures of wars, conflicts, since 1945 then have been very very many, not least in Bosnia...

[Zeuhl]

em

1. we are discussing peace in Europe. the last two global conflicts started there, not in Russia.

2. Deaths and injuries in armed conflicts has been steadily decreasing worldwide since 1945. See Professor Stephen Pinker's excellent book 'The Better Angels of our Nature'

[Zeuhl]

Noth

NATO was created to face down the Soviets with USA not to maintain peace in Europe.

You could argue that the multi national cooperation has helped foster good relations, mutual respect and integration; as such it is a military version of the EU so yes it probably has helped

[Zeuhl]

Noth, sorry

what i mean is that:

NATO was created to face down the Soviets with USA help not to maintain peace 'within' Europe.

[emmie]

estimated dead for WW2 is anywhere between 60/90 million, so one would hope that the figures are decreasing...
but you have to think of all the conflicts that have gone on since 1945, and many millions have died, under Pol Pot, Mao, Mugabe, Saddam Hussein, and many more besides, so it's hardly a peaceful world, and if the UN was in any way effective surely there wouldn't be quite so many, as to the EU, well time will tell on that score.

[Noth43]

Oxford companion to Military History:
//The Atlantic Alliance, as it is also known, has been the dominant feature of European security and defence for half a century and remains at bottom a device designed to guarantee continuing US military commitment to western European defence. Latterly it has begun to find a new role in peacekeeping. Like the UN, it has been an expression of a US foreign policy based on ideals believed to be intrinsically favourable to US interests and will continue to exist as long as it serves that purpose.//
SO, originally you are correct but things have moved on.
In light of this do you think NATO has played more of a peacekeeping role in Europe than the EU?

[Zeuhl]

/In light of this do you think NATO has played more of a peacekeeping role in Europe than the EU? /

No

Because ultimately (except in military dictatorships) the military only express the will of the people as manipulated by their politicians.

e.g. in 1939 the majority of the German people believed they had been mistreated by their European neighbours and believed in the legitimacy of the war initiated by Hitler

[Zeuhl]

/and many millions have died, under Pol Pot, Mao, Mugabe, Saddam Hussein, and many more besides, so it's hardly a peaceful world, /

em

Stephen Pinker studiously calculates all those (and more) before coming to his conclusions that overall, people and events are becoming 'better'

[Noth43]

I don't get your point zeul..there has been no war in Europe since the creation of NATO after the second world war.
How much of that peace can you accredit to the EU?

[starone]

Although I know it is probably a wasted vote, I would vote UKIP because their manifesto is promising me the things I would like to see. After all, if you think about it you (everyone) votes for the party they think will do this. However, I would not vote Tory if the UKIP combines with them, because the Tory Party do not offer me what I want, and I am sure this is what would happen. So, I would have to look around for another party which promises me the earth,- I did say promises, they never keep them - and there are not very many of them. Ah well, time will tell I suppose.

[Zeuhl]

/no war in Europe since the creation of NATO after the second world war.
How much of that peace can you accredit to the EU? /

my point is that 70 years without war within europe is historically unprecedented and extraordinary.

that happens to coincide with the European Union which has inextricably connected and aligned those countries (not without protest from many people) at a fundamental level of integrated business, laws and regulations, migration and homogenisation.

That seems like more than a coincidence to me. And as such, the saving of trillions of pounds and millions of lives is an incredibly significant factor to bear in mind when we consider whether the EU is a 'good thing' or not.

NATO, and the cooperation of the American and European armed forces may have mimicked that but has had relatively little or no affect on daily life in the 'united' europe.

[Zeuhl]

effect!

[Noth43]

..But the EU was not established until 1993!

[Zeuhl]

Point taken Noth - my shorthand for European 'union' developing since WW2

/the European Economic Community (EEC), formed by the Inner Six countries in 1951 /

[Zeuhl]

/The founding members of the Community were Belgium, France, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, and West Germany. /

Err, spot the countries involved in the kick off for the Franco-Prussian War, World War One and World War Two!