Was This Death Caused Deliberately Or Was It Just An Unfortunate Accident Caused In The Process Of An Arrest?

[anotheoldgit]

Yet another black man killed by a white police officer, and who is later cleared by a Grand Jury, which has again triggered off riots.

The unfortunate victim was a large powerful man, how else could the police officer manage to wrestle him to the ground and thus prevent him from going through the plate glass window of the store?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/eric-garner-chokehold-case-police-officer-daniel-pantaleo-not-charged-9901893.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/04/nyregion/grand-jury-said-to-bring-no-charges-in-staten-island-chokehold-death-of-eric-garner.html

[Retrochic]

for goodness sake mikey....your intellect is very capable of understanding what I meant but you seem to prefer to cherry pick disjointed quotes to ridicule my opinions.

[Baldric]

Chokeholds are used in martial arts, combat sports, self-defence, law enforcement and in military hand to hand combat applications. (Been there, got the T-shirt).
They are controlled by the person applying them as to the severity of the affect they have, in this case it has been said that /// His health problems, including asthma and obesity, were contributing factors///
The Officer would only have been aware of one of those factors, and what should have been a subduing hold quickly turned into something far more serious.
I doubt that it was the Officers intention to kill him, but when dealing with a large powerful opponent things can happen quickly before a problem is spotted.
My opinion, an accident!

[Retrochic]

I agree Baldric

[ludwig]

// he was lucky he wasn't shot. //

Actually he was unlucky he wasn't shot. He would have suffered less.

[Mamyalynne]

In a one on one situation Baldric I would agree with you - but the number of people present and involved meant that man was going nowhere.

[Bazile]

Baldric - so this officer was not capable of understanding someone saying that they can't breathe ?

[Baldric]

///To hear 'Eric Garner' say repeatedly that he could not breath has made my blood run cold, yet they simply applied more pressure///

"I can't breathe" is a standard 'ploy' to get a Chokehold slackened or released, think about it, if you can't breathe' you can't talk!

[Mamyalynne]

And anyone with any common sense knows that an obese person lying face down with other bodies on top of them will suffer breathing difficulties.


We aren't talking a stripling of a teenager screaming 'You're breaking my arm' as he is handcuffed - we know that happens.


It's having the intelligence to know the difference.

[Bazile]

Or more likely - i'm having trouble breathing ( although i can still ' talk ' ) ?

[Mamyalynne]

'I can't breathe' is rather quicker to say than 'I am having some difficulty with my respiration officer' when you know you are fading fast.

[ludwig]

// "I can't breathe" is a standard 'ploy' to get a Chokehold slackened or released, //

It's also a standard ploy to convey the information that you can't breathe to someone.

As it says in the Independent article, choke holds have been banned by the NY police because they're too dangerous.

[Ellipsis]

I think we have considerable evidence he couldn't breathe. He's dead ...

[ludwig]

Being dead could just be a ploy.

[Baldric]

So, you don't think his Health Problems may have contributed towards his demise then?

[Sqad]

People die........in all sorts of unfortunate circustances and it is usually triggered off by an underlying weaknes.
This guy was fat, unfit, probably diabetic and hypertensive.......just waiting for a coronary or cerebrovascular accident to happen.
He was breaking the law and the policemen were doing their duty.
He unfortunately died..........it has happened before and will happen again.

[Baldric]

Thank you Sqad,

[Mamyalynne]

Baldric,I agree his underlying health could well have been a factor yes.

However as I stated above even with no medical training I know that many obese people struggle to breathe when lay down,a degree of intelligence is all I ask.

I also say again , this was not a single officer in a desperate one to one situation.


Sqad is correct of course , he could have died the very next day at home,but we can only comment on what we have.

Of course it will happen again.

[Bazile]

it may / may not have

The issue here is - if you have someone in a chokehold and they convey to you that they can't breathe - what would you do - tighten the grip ?

[Baldric]

//what would you do//

If it were in a Training situation I would carefully slacken the hold, bearing in mind 'ploy' no one wants to be caught out.
In a real life situation that I had been trained for, No way!

[Ellipsis]

> The issue here is - if you have someone in a chokehold and they convey to you that they can't breathe - what would you do - tighten the grip ?

The first article in the OP reads "The verdict comes despite the city's medical examiner ruling that the death was homicide and the New York Police Department’s ban on chokeholds, as they are dangerous."

So if you have someone in a chokehold and you're in the NYPD, you're already in the wrong even before they die.