The Integration Of Muslims....

[naomi24]

...will probably be the hardest task" the UK has ever faced.

So says Trevor Phillips, former chairman of the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

According to a recent survey:

52% of those quizzed disagreed that homosexuality should be legal in Britain, and 47% said it was unacceptable for a gay or lesbian person to teach in school.

Only 34% would tell the police if they thought someone they knew was getting involved with supporters of terrorism in Syria and 4% said they sympathise with people who take part in suicide bombing to fight injustice.

39% were also found to be of the view that "wives should always obey their husbands".

23% said they would support there being areas of Britain in which Sharia law was introduced.

Mr Phillips said "The integration of Britain's Muslims will probably be the hardest task we've ever faced. It will require the abandonment of the milk-and-water multiculturalism still so beloved of many, and the adoption of a far more muscular approach to integration."

How do we begin to abandon "the milk-and-water multiculturalism still so beloved of many" and adopt a “far more muscular approach to integration”?

http://news.sky.com/story/1676189/poll-half-of-muslims-want-homosexuality-banned

[Togo]

Read it again 237^^^

[237SJ]

Togo - good one but I don`t know what your point is

[Togo]

//They who cling to and refuse to integrate into our British society, can be encouraged and assisted in the return to the culture that they so pine for.//

There you go. Is that easier?

[-Talbot-]

naomi24
Question Author
//how do we combat "the milk-and-water multiculturalism still so beloved of many"? //

I don't seem to be able to get an answer to that.



There is now hardly ever a response from posters who think there isn't a problem.
Even being the wrong type of Muslim is becoming more of a problem to the radicals.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/leaflets-calling-for-ahmadi-muslims-to-be-killed-if-they-do-not-convert-to-mainstream-islam-found-in-a6979471.html

[237SJ]

Don`t patronise me Togo..

[Jackdaw33]

I don't think Togo was patronising you. You seemed to making the point that if they were born here there is nothing we can do. The short answer is that there IS something we can do, especially when we leave the EU, no longer subject to their laws, and can make our own once again.

[jim360]

"Jim once again rattles off reams of introspective blurb as if writing a thesis ..."

To be fair, I could do with the practice. And for the rest, well, I was trying to condense a 600-page document, and you'll forgive me for deciding that it's going to take rather a lot more than a hundred words to do that and be fair, to both sides of the argument. Naomi's post, for example, was a slightly edited version of the original article, focusing on the points she wanted to make, but the article itself is arguably too condensed and misses a lot of important context ie comparative figures. So I thought I should include that, as it makes it easier to interpret what's going on, hopefully. For example, some of the stats really are bad because they are outrageously excessive, whereas others only *look* bad until you realise that they aren't that different from the rest of us, or at least from the rest of us less than a generation ago.

But anyway, I can't really think of an answer to Naomi's question, except that perhaps the "milk-and-water" approach is probably prompted in part by what it sees as an *overly* aggressive approach to integration, eg by describing all Muslims as undesirable, or unwilling to integrate, or the like, none of which are true or fair. Unfortunately, their response is instead overly defensive. Perhaps the best way to abandon it would be for both sides of that argument to agree that it's in everyone's best interest to recognise that there is a problem, but to make sure its scale is not exaggerated.

As to this bit: "But can [jim] tell us why we are not, indeed never been, accused of Sikhophobia or Hindophobia." I found these three links (along with a host of books on the topic, none of which I have read, but might be worth a look, eg

http://nsouk.co.uk/government-fails-to-take-anti-sikh-hate-crime-seriously/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11410809/Sikh-lives-matter-in-Britain-too-whether-Sikh-or-Muslim-racists-dont-discriminate.html

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1050909/asp/nation/story_5216557.asp

In all cases it could perhaps be argued that this is really the result of Islamophobia for berks, but still the fact is that "Hinduphobia" and "Sikhophobia" are also problems. They are less noticeable in the UK perhaps (in India, less so). Islamophobia here is just more visible, and perhaps easier to rationalise.

[jim360]

I realise in editing that I forgot to finish that bracket about books that might be worth a look:

"... (along with a host of books on the topic, none of which I have read, but might be worth a look, eg "Religion or Belief, Discrimination and Equality: Britain in Global Contexts" by Paul Weller and this report from 2006: http://www.runnymedetrust.org/uploads/publications/pdfs/ConnectingBritishHindus-2006.pdf )

[-Talbot-]

It's not too difficult to Google a result that suits, Jim.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13135809.Rise_in_racism_against_white_British/

[TWR]

Jim, I see you go to great lengths with your well informed replies! But, do you think we need a sermon?

[Khandro]

See Alison Pearson in the Telegraph on the subject;

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2016/04/12/why-the-icm-poll-of-british-muslims-shows-we-need-to-defend-our/

[naomi24]

Jim, your post at 23:30 Tue is a good example of ‘the ‘milk and water’ approach. In short, as I read it, you’re claiming that, had the survey been conducted in a different area, the findings, in the main, would have been similar – but that simply isn’t true. If it were, Islam would not be the focus.

[jim360]

Naomi: "In short, as I read it, you’re claiming that, had the survey been conducted in a different area, the findings, in the main, would have been similar – but that simply isn’t true."

Firstly, it's not a hypothetical claim: the same survey was conducted out in a different area, with a different population more representative of the entire UK, only a week later. A few Muslim-specific questions were omitted, and the manner of conducting the survey was different, but those two points aside it allows for not just a hypothetical comparison but an exact one. And I tried to provide some of those comparisons, on my first thread.

So what do the comparisons actually show, then? In some cases, the results *are* similar. No claim about it. They are there, in black-and-white, if you'd care to look. And in others, the results are not, and Muslims come out of the comparison poorly. They are also there, in black-and-white, if the "milk and water" practitioners would care to look. I tried to provide examples of both cases in my first post here.

What do milk-and-water people need to do? To stop trying to ignore or bury the problem. What do more aggressive people need to do? To stop exaggerating the problem, and to stop giving it up as insoluble. Both sides have a tendency to make it too much of an argument about what the nature and scale of the problem even are, with the result that there's no hope of solving it if we are too busy arguing about what "it" even is.

* * *

TWR: I'm sorry if it looks sermon-like. I can't help it. I guess I have a lot I want to say. I am trying to get better at brevity, though.

If it's any comfort, sometimes I'm talking to myself as much as anyone else. Writing these posts, and doing the research beforehand, has helped shape my opinions and modify them.

[Khandro]

jim; Re. your link to "Sikh hate crime"

//“The Minister will be aware of numerous attacks on Sikhs as a result of mistaken identity//

I can't see this. Sikhs with their turbans (the dastaar) are the most identifiable of all religious groups. Any hate crimes against them is most likely to come from other immigrant religious groups.
Sikhs are hard-working and integrate well into the host society in my experience, - and what's more, their religion forbids them to eat halal meat!

[Old_Geezer]

Getting stuff down in writing does help one spot apparent contradictions, why they are there, and what takes priority. I'm fairly certain any stance one takes will find overlaps with stances taken on related issues, and won't just sit consistent until one forms rules about, why this belief overrides that, in these circumstances. I can't imaging a decent viewpoint that doesn't find these sorts of things for others to pick at so it's good to get it down and know where you really stand. Working it out as you defend is much less likely to be successful and leaves you thinking, "Oh that's what I should have said", later.

[Peter Pedant]

// jim360 "Jim once again rattles off reams of introspective blurb as if writing a thesis ..." //

o give them hell Jim

I welcome your "reams of introspective blurb" as intelligent summaries of pdfs I dont wanna read myself
Many thanks
your math ( long sums = adding .... for the average AB reader) background turbo charges the logical argument you put forward. ( thx Lord Mackay LC - who had both law and math degrees )

You cant believe the amount of senseless clag I have to wade thro to get to your contributions. Ed why cant we have a "jump to Jim" button ?

[Peter Pedant]

Khsndo

sikh crime

I am not sure if the average Mank can tell the difference between a woman in a hijab and a sikh with a turban

but Jesus I wouldnt try beating up a Sikh I can tell you - back bone of the Indian Army werent they because theywere so fierce.... [ my grand-daddy was ICS ]

[jim360]

Khandro: "Any hate crimes against [Sikhs are] most likely to come from other immigrant religious groups."

I had wondered about this possibility. Religious tensions between Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs are quite high (possibly a massive understatement) in the Indian subcontinent, so it's possible that this is an imported problem. I think in general most British people are very good at keeping their intolerances, if any, to themselves. Whatever the source of "Hinduphobia"/ "Sikhophobia", though, it is also something that shouldn't be ignored.

Thanks again PP (honorary president of the jim360 fan club, presumably).

[tamborine]

The only way to break islamism to integrate to 'our' acceptible values is to close their madrasa in host countries.

[Togo]

I notice that my earlier comment on the tendency of some posters to pad out their contributions was pasted and copied twice. On both occasions it appears that the last 5 words were accidently omitted. I will add them, to nullify any possibility of a misunderstanding. //with a minimum word requirement//