ChatterBank2 mins ago
The Integration Of Muslims....
...will probably be the hardest task" the UK has ever faced.
So says Trevor Phillips, former chairman of the Equality and Human Rights Commission.
According to a recent survey:
52% of those quizzed disagreed that homosexuality should be legal in Britain, and 47% said it was unacceptable for a gay or lesbian person to teach in school.
Only 34% would tell the police if they thought someone they knew was getting involved with supporters of terrorism in Syria and 4% said they sympathise with people who take part in suicide bombing to fight injustice.
39% were also found to be of the view that "wives should always obey their husbands".
23% said they would support there being areas of Britain in which Sharia law was introduced.
Mr Phillips said "The integration of Britain's Muslims will probably be the hardest task we've ever faced. It will require the abandonment of the milk-and-water multiculturalism still so beloved of many, and the adoption of a far more muscular approach to integration."
How do we begin to abandon "the milk-and-water multiculturalism still so beloved of many" and adopt a “far more muscular approach to integration”?
http://
So says Trevor Phillips, former chairman of the Equality and Human Rights Commission.
According to a recent survey:
52% of those quizzed disagreed that homosexuality should be legal in Britain, and 47% said it was unacceptable for a gay or lesbian person to teach in school.
Only 34% would tell the police if they thought someone they knew was getting involved with supporters of terrorism in Syria and 4% said they sympathise with people who take part in suicide bombing to fight injustice.
39% were also found to be of the view that "wives should always obey their husbands".
23% said they would support there being areas of Britain in which Sharia law was introduced.
Mr Phillips said "The integration of Britain's Muslims will probably be the hardest task we've ever faced. It will require the abandonment of the milk-and-water multiculturalism still so beloved of many, and the adoption of a far more muscular approach to integration."
How do we begin to abandon "the milk-and-water multiculturalism still so beloved of many" and adopt a “far more muscular approach to integration”?
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Angela Merkel has said on more than one occasion that multiculturalism isn't working in Germany and yet she wants to import more Muslims ... millions of them and dish them out to the rest of Europe. Crazy, what is going on?
Many (too many) of the last batch of Muslims have refused to integrate what makes her and others think that this next batch will?
Surely things are only going to get worse?
Rather than shout 'Racist' can the pro mass immigration brigade tell why I am wrong!
Many (too many) of the last batch of Muslims have refused to integrate what makes her and others think that this next batch will?
Surely things are only going to get worse?
Rather than shout 'Racist' can the pro mass immigration brigade tell why I am wrong!
//How can that be achieved?// By not pandering to every whim of the Muslim community. - Banning the Burka, banning halal slaughter, having just one curriculum in schools, monitoring of just what is being preached in mosques etc, etc.
Watching last night's repeat of Question Time from Essex, it struck me how the audience comprised of a range of people from different ethnic backgrounds and how the 'Asians' had so much to say, were articulate and obviously cared about general British politics, some of them quite young women, but the only subjects of interest to Muslims seem to be Muslim issues.
Later on, I watched on RT (great channel!) an interesting debate about this subject and 'societies within societies'.
Watching last night's repeat of Question Time from Essex, it struck me how the audience comprised of a range of people from different ethnic backgrounds and how the 'Asians' had so much to say, were articulate and obviously cared about general British politics, some of them quite young women, but the only subjects of interest to Muslims seem to be Muslim issues.
Later on, I watched on RT (great channel!) an interesting debate about this subject and 'societies within societies'.
Islam wants to remove the infidel, thats the majority of the UK. You cannot integrate if you are holding that idea.
As said above, the way to combat it is to stop pandering to them and their sympathisers (quite a few of them have graced these pages) and jail or remove those that preach hated
If they dont like the West then leave, at the moment we are a free Country, much as they would like to stop that.
But with Spineless Cameron in power and Corbyn trying to court their vote it wont happen. It can only end in tears, probably ours as we have to leave our once free shores.
As said above, the way to combat it is to stop pandering to them and their sympathisers (quite a few of them have graced these pages) and jail or remove those that preach hated
If they dont like the West then leave, at the moment we are a free Country, much as they would like to stop that.
But with Spineless Cameron in power and Corbyn trying to court their vote it wont happen. It can only end in tears, probably ours as we have to leave our once free shores.
I think there is certainly work to be done -- what the "milk-and-water multiculturalists" presumably will have to do is accept that this survey highlights problems that have to be addressed rather than ignored.
On the other hand, people who argue that Muslims can never be integrated into British society might be equally well-advised to note that (from the full survey results at http://
1) 86% of Muslims feel a strong affinity for Britain (Table 4). While the target is clearly 100%, it seems that there is engagement possible. Most, also, seem to expect to be treated the same as everybody else.
2) Of the 4% (40) who sympathise with terrorists, 35 only did so "to some extent", which is a little ambiguous; and 83% condemned such action (Q22f). Indeed, in general any action beyond non-violent protest was largely condemned; including condemnation of both ISIS and its methods. Again, this means that there is work to be done, but that there can be some hope of its being successful. On the other hand, the overwhelming majority of Muslims are uptight about publishing pictures of any kind about Muhammed. (Q25, Q26).
3) While "Only 34% would tell the police if they thought someone they knew was getting involved with supporters of terrorism in Syria", almost half of all respondents thought that Muslims should do more themselves to tackle extremism (Table 109) (and half of the rest didn't know), and many of those who wouldn't tell police would still try and talk to someone about it.
Separately, it's worth comparing the Muslim-specific survey to a control group, as ICM actually did, and I summarise some results below:
on affinity for Britain: 86% Muslim, 83% control.
on illegality of homosexuality: 52% Muslim, 11% control.
on illegality of homosexual teachers: 47% Muslim, 14% control.
on wives obeying husbands: 39% Muslim, 5% control (of which mostly Christian or (bizarrely, to me) atheist).
on reporting terrorist suspects to police: 34% Muslim, 30% control.
Disregarding the last statistic, it's clear that Muslims in general are lagging behind the rest of society on various important issues, but this should be seen in the context that only 20-odd years ago the rest of society was in a very similar place. Trends available from the US (http://www.gallup.com/poll/1651/gay-lesbian-rights.aspx ), for example, show that Americans as a whole have, or had recently, a broadly similar stance on homosexual teachers and on homosexuality (it took until 2001 for a majority of respondents to accept that it should be legal); in the UK I've not been able to find trends on the legality question, but again it was only in the mid-1990s that a majority accepted that such relations were not "always wrong" ( eg http://
As a result, I don't think the task of integration is so hopeless. How we go about it is anyone's guess, but if we see the challenges we have to recognise also the positives of the survey above, and use those as a starting point. Most Muslims don't seem to want to be excluded. Having said that there is often only minor difference between Muslims born here and those born elsewhere. But I've run out of characters now.
* * * *
As an interesting collection of "What?!" statistics, 8 Christians said that they sympathised with suicide bombing, 10 with stoning adulterers, 11 that they supported creation of a caliphate, and 3 with the methods of ISIS. My own take on those numbers is that a small number of people weren't taking the survey entirely seriously.
On the other hand, people who argue that Muslims can never be integrated into British society might be equally well-advised to note that (from the full survey results at http://
1) 86% of Muslims feel a strong affinity for Britain (Table 4). While the target is clearly 100%, it seems that there is engagement possible. Most, also, seem to expect to be treated the same as everybody else.
2) Of the 4% (40) who sympathise with terrorists, 35 only did so "to some extent", which is a little ambiguous; and 83% condemned such action (Q22f). Indeed, in general any action beyond non-violent protest was largely condemned; including condemnation of both ISIS and its methods. Again, this means that there is work to be done, but that there can be some hope of its being successful. On the other hand, the overwhelming majority of Muslims are uptight about publishing pictures of any kind about Muhammed. (Q25, Q26).
3) While "Only 34% would tell the police if they thought someone they knew was getting involved with supporters of terrorism in Syria", almost half of all respondents thought that Muslims should do more themselves to tackle extremism (Table 109) (and half of the rest didn't know), and many of those who wouldn't tell police would still try and talk to someone about it.
Separately, it's worth comparing the Muslim-specific survey to a control group, as ICM actually did, and I summarise some results below:
on affinity for Britain: 86% Muslim, 83% control.
on illegality of homosexuality: 52% Muslim, 11% control.
on illegality of homosexual teachers: 47% Muslim, 14% control.
on wives obeying husbands: 39% Muslim, 5% control (of which mostly Christian or (bizarrely, to me) atheist).
on reporting terrorist suspects to police: 34% Muslim, 30% control.
Disregarding the last statistic, it's clear that Muslims in general are lagging behind the rest of society on various important issues, but this should be seen in the context that only 20-odd years ago the rest of society was in a very similar place. Trends available from the US (http://www.gallup.com/poll/1651/gay-lesbian-rights.aspx ), for example, show that Americans as a whole have, or had recently, a broadly similar stance on homosexual teachers and on homosexuality (it took until 2001 for a majority of respondents to accept that it should be legal); in the UK I've not been able to find trends on the legality question, but again it was only in the mid-1990s that a majority accepted that such relations were not "always wrong" ( eg http://
As a result, I don't think the task of integration is so hopeless. How we go about it is anyone's guess, but if we see the challenges we have to recognise also the positives of the survey above, and use those as a starting point. Most Muslims don't seem to want to be excluded. Having said that there is often only minor difference between Muslims born here and those born elsewhere. But I've run out of characters now.
* * * *
As an interesting collection of "What?!" statistics, 8 Christians said that they sympathised with suicide bombing, 10 with stoning adulterers, 11 that they supported creation of a caliphate, and 3 with the methods of ISIS. My own take on those numbers is that a small number of people weren't taking the survey entirely seriously.
Of course, typically, towards the end of that 615-page document the writers published helpful condensed tables comparing Muslims to the control group, whereas I was flicking back-and-forth between the detailed results. Any errors in the above numbers are my own, but I hope they are all correct, and if not then I'm made the original source available in any case.
* * * *
One of the more troubling comparisons I wanted to mention was on views about Jewish people. That ~10% or so of the general population seems to hold antisemitic views is troubling enough, but this proportion is three times higher among Muslims. With respect to most other religions, Muslims and the general population are largely the same, but that one stuck out like a sore thumb.
* * * *
One of the more troubling comparisons I wanted to mention was on views about Jewish people. That ~10% or so of the general population seems to hold antisemitic views is troubling enough, but this proportion is three times higher among Muslims. With respect to most other religions, Muslims and the general population are largely the same, but that one stuck out like a sore thumb.
Three here have integrated themselves into oblivion, without managing to harm anyone else.
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That statement was based on results gathered from the survey, though. For example, the overall score rating how Muslims feel about Hindus on average, was 66% favourable compared to 61% for the general population; opinions of Protestants from both surveyed populations was about 68% or 69% on the same scale; Catholics scored 70% from Muslims and 61% from the control group; Buddhists were either side of 64% for both groups. Those are essentially the same, if you are accepting the survey results as valid (and why not on those questions, if everywhere else). (In the document I cited, see for example pages 597-600).
The three places where there is significant disagreement are on Muslims (not surprisingly), Jews and atheists. Throughout this question about a quarter of the Muslims surveyed answered "don't know", so it's possible that some were wanting to hide their true feelings, but then it looks like there was a similar proportion from the control group that didn't answer.
The three places where there is significant disagreement are on Muslims (not surprisingly), Jews and atheists. Throughout this question about a quarter of the Muslims surveyed answered "don't know", so it's possible that some were wanting to hide their true feelings, but then it looks like there was a similar proportion from the control group that didn't answer.
Yes, Khandro, the figures will come with some level of uncertainty because of that. All surveys are fraught with such hazards. On the other hand, the same risks would apply to the control group, and it's therefore reasonable to assume that the errors in both sets of respondents are similar. On the other side of the coin are perhaps some people who don't take the survey seriously and just decide to say whatever sounds like it will be most outrageous.
But that is a problem, as I say, with every such survey, rather than this one in particular. Either you accept surveys as a reasonably trustworthy source, within errors, to reflect how the population thinks, or you don't, but its being a survey of Muslims in particular is likely to have no significant change on the reliability of the results. It may also depend on who was asking, of course. One other point is that the control survey was performed in a slightly different way (telephone) from the survey of Muslims in particular (face-to-face). What impact that might have isn't too clear to me, but I would probably regard face-to-face interviews as slightly more reliable (among other things because it's easier to feel at ease with someone you can see when you are talking to them). That's only a personal judgement, though.
On the specific topic of Sharia, there were actually two separate questions asked: one (Q10) about how people would like to lead their lives (1% support for loving wholly under Sharia Law, compared with 49% who reported that they "would like to fully integrate... in all aspects of life"); and the second about seeing Sharia Law introduced in some areas of Britain general, for which there was 7% strong support (out of the total 23%). I think these answers can be seen as somewhat inconsistent, although perhaps some Muslims just want Sharia Law to be available, even if they don't make use of it.
* * * *
At any rate, even if the various results are underestimates it seems a massive stretch to extend the figure of, for example, 52% support for criminalising homosexuality all the way up to ~100% (which is to say that we shouldn't exaggerate the problem). On the other hand, 52% is far too high, and we shouldn't ignore the problems faced either. The middle ground is in accepting that it will take a great deal of effort to ensure that Muslims are integrated into society more effectively, without assuming that this task is a hopeless one.
But that is a problem, as I say, with every such survey, rather than this one in particular. Either you accept surveys as a reasonably trustworthy source, within errors, to reflect how the population thinks, or you don't, but its being a survey of Muslims in particular is likely to have no significant change on the reliability of the results. It may also depend on who was asking, of course. One other point is that the control survey was performed in a slightly different way (telephone) from the survey of Muslims in particular (face-to-face). What impact that might have isn't too clear to me, but I would probably regard face-to-face interviews as slightly more reliable (among other things because it's easier to feel at ease with someone you can see when you are talking to them). That's only a personal judgement, though.
On the specific topic of Sharia, there were actually two separate questions asked: one (Q10) about how people would like to lead their lives (1% support for loving wholly under Sharia Law, compared with 49% who reported that they "would like to fully integrate... in all aspects of life"); and the second about seeing Sharia Law introduced in some areas of Britain general, for which there was 7% strong support (out of the total 23%). I think these answers can be seen as somewhat inconsistent, although perhaps some Muslims just want Sharia Law to be available, even if they don't make use of it.
* * * *
At any rate, even if the various results are underestimates it seems a massive stretch to extend the figure of, for example, 52% support for criminalising homosexuality all the way up to ~100% (which is to say that we shouldn't exaggerate the problem). On the other hand, 52% is far too high, and we shouldn't ignore the problems faced either. The middle ground is in accepting that it will take a great deal of effort to ensure that Muslims are integrated into society more effectively, without assuming that this task is a hopeless one.
