Hypothetical Question: If We Had Never Joined Europe …..

[naomi24]

…. and were invited to join now, would you vote ‘Yes’ or ‘No’?

[-Talbot-]

I firmly believe only an exit vote by us can lead to a 'reformed' union.

[Gromit]

Incandescents are being phased put all over the world, not just by the EU. Everybody sees the foolishness of wasting energy on inefficient lighting.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_incandescent_light_bulbs

In relation to the EU, the phase out came after lobbying from Brotish and European Lightbulb manufacturers. There was very little profit in incandescent lightbulbs, and the manufacturers wanted us to buy more expensive ones.

[Hopkirk]

Without Maggie to do the negotiation on our contributions, it has to be no.

[Old_Geezer]

Nothing is 100% efficient in its main function. Loss from incandescents was not worth biching about. In winter the heat generated is advantageous not wasted. In summer nights are short and the waste thus minimal. Anywhere else where they have implemented the same laws, forcing folk such that they could no longer enjoy the advantages, were equally wrong.

[Old_Geezer]

Bending over backwards to please the merchants is seen all to often these days, as control is wrenched from individual governments. Judging by that example reason, presumably we can expect the EU to accept the TTIP in full then.

[naomi24]

Gromit, // It WILL have to change.//

.... but not necessarily in ways that are advantageous to us. Its history doesn't inspire optimism. Quite the opposite.

[ToraToraTora]

definately NO

[bazwillrun]

NO, NO ,NO, NO

Harmonisation and integration... the eussr euphemisms for dictate and control

[retrocop]

Not for me thank you.

[viv41]

NO, not never, no how !!!!

[jno]

Assume for arguments sake we're as we are now

...so that's "as we are now after 40 years in Europe".

In other words, you're asking if Britain as it is now should be in Europe.... which is exactly the question the referendum is asking. So not a hypothetical question at all?

[jim360]

Perhaps it might be better to pose the hypothetical question in terms of, say, a hitherto undiscovered UK-sized country about ten miles off the West Coast of Ireland with essentially the same economic structure, somehow, despite being unaffected by 40 years of EU membership...

It's a difficult question to answer, I think, and criticisms of overthinking I always think are unfair. "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler," is one of my favourite (possibly apocryphal) quotes, attributed to Einstein. In this case, it seems to me that the answer to the question, "Would I vote to join the EU from outside?" depends, at the very least, in which country I am living in, what terms can be expected, and what attitudes the country has had as a whole towards the very concept of a European union.

I'd like to pose an alternative hypothetical question, if I may, although this might be better off in a separate thread. Assuming that the UK left the EU, and it then turned out that the dire warnings of Project Fear turned out to be (at least partly) true, how bad would things have to get before Brexit supporters regretted their decision? Is there *any* level of consequence that would persuade you that maybe it was wrong to leave the EU?

[naomi24]

jno, //In other words, you're asking if Britain as it is now should be in Europe....//

No, I am not. I am asking if people seeing Europe from the outside would want to join it.

Jim, // Is there *any* level of consequence that would persuade you that maybe it was wrong to leave the EU?//

I can’t think of any.

[Jackdaw33]

No to Naomi and No to Jim.

[Svejk]

No-to Jim.(unless we're getting into the realms of fantasy)

[jim360]

Really? None at all?! Not even the worst-case scenario of, say, decade-long recession, break-up of the UK and EU, dismantling of trade deals and at any rate worse terms, trashed reputation on the world stage, declining investment in international collaborative projects etc?

Could the UK become a complete and utter dump and you'd still survey the wreckage and say to yourself "yep, totally worth it"?

[jno]

naomi, if you really want to be hypothetical, imagine a hypothetical Britain that hadn't joined Europe. One where (for instance) mobile roaming charges were high because the EU hadn't forced them down last week. One where they still had curved bananas.

As it is, you're asking British people, who are not seeing it from the outside, whether they want to be in or out, and - surprise!- getting exactly the same answers from the same people as the Ed's own In Or Out thread did.

[Jackdaw33]

Yes

[jim360]

And to svejk -- yes, we are allowed to enter the realms of fantasy for this one. I don't expect that Brexit would ever amount to the UK committing international suicide -- but, if it did, I think there surely has to be a point where people wonder if it was worth it. And, if not, why not?

[Old_Geezer]

How does one measure 'badness' for the purposes of your question, Jim ?

I'd suggest that if we were clearly heading to be in a similar situation to what used to be called third world economies, maybe we would have to admit defeat by world powers wanting to manipulate what we did. Accept we were powerless to prevent being taken over by more powerful blocks carving out their empire. And we'd just have to hope for freedom some time in the future.

But the reality is that whatever is decided the worst case scenarios of both camps are unlikely, and prove not to be as bad as it could have been. Change usually causes a little blip, but it all levels out, in the medium to long term.