Words Fail Me........

[ToraToraTora]

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-41656188
Is it bad that I want to murder the scum that did this?

[naomi24]

andy-hughes, unlike others, doesn’t feel utter disgust at this appalling slaughter of a magnificent animal solely for its horn - therefore to his mind, as a meat eater, he’s not hypocritical. Wonky thinking .... but that's nothing new.

[jourdain2]

Ta, Naomi, I was baffled - and still feeling sickened.

[andy-hughes]

EDDIE - // AH sorry but you are way out of order here.
Poachers shoot the animals often with a machine gun. The horn is hacked off often while the animal is still alive but dying from its injuries. A slaughter house even a Halal one still at least stuns the animals before killing them. A slaughter house kills the animal for food and the entire animal is used,either for food or byproducts
( leather Hide) . Poachers just want to cut off the horn or tusks the carcass is left to rot. //

The circumstances of the animal's death is not the point I am arguing here - the circumstances behind it are.

The animal is just as dead whether you snip off a toenail, or use every single last bit of it, so the niceties of disposal after death are not relevant, either to the animal, or the point I am making.

//The horn is not sold by medical doctors it is sold by 'witch-doctors' or black market illegal drug dealers. The potions sold are useless , rhino horn does not cure impotence, premature ejaculation, cancer or even a hangover. //

Again - not the point.

If people buy what they believe to be medicine, then animals like rhinos are slaughtered to provide it. The efficacy of the medicine is not the driving force, the belief in it is.

I am simply pointing out that killing a rhino for its horn is the same as killing a cow for meat - only the finer details differ, and the economic drivers are identical.

My other point is, if you are going to get het up on a wb site and threaten death to people, be prepared to be called out for your hypocrisy if you are a meat eater, because a hypocrite is what you are.

As I have pointed out, I am equally distressed about the pointless deaths of any animal of any species, but as a meat eater, I would be a hypocrite to weep and wail on a website about death in one circumstance, when I contribute to death in others.

Do I think the rhino's death is tragic and needless? Absolutely.

Would I post on here suggesting murder for the perpetrators? Absolutely not.

Have the courage of your convictions - or get off the pot.

[andy-hughes]

Naomi - //andy-hughes, unlike others, doesn’t feel utter disgust at this appalling slaughter of a magnificent animal solely for its horn - therefore to his mind, as a meat eater, he’s not hypocritical. Wonky thinking .... but that's nothing new. //

I was typing my post at 22.46 when this landed, so I will reply to it now.

As you will see from my post at 22.46, I am appalled at the slaughter of any animal for something like this - please do not put words in my mouth, especially when you are wrong.

And disagree with my thinking by all means, but do not insult it as 'wonky' - that is rude and unhelpful.

[ToraToraTora]

surely Andy, you can see the death thing is hyperbole, possibly the typed word does not portray the tone correctly. Think of it as Clarksonesque.

[naomi24]

andy-hughes, actually calling people hypocrites, as you have, is rude - and it wasn't my intention to be helpful.

[andy-hughes]

TTT - Yes, of course I can see that.

I was, to an extent playing Devil's Advocate with you, but I do believe that my points are valid.

I have stated many many times on this site, that to get really really upset about absolutely anything you cannot control or alter does nothing but damage the individual, and alters nothing else.

For that reason, I always try to be the alternative voice of reason when debates like this come up.

I run the risk of sending already outraged individuals in further paroxysms of temper, which tends to cloud their thinking and make them either see things I have not actually said, or to be rude to me for saying what I think - but that is the risk of debate.

In conclusion, should anyone be in any doubt (Hi Naomi!) I think the needless slaughter of any animal is a stain on humanity and is without any rational defence whatsoever.

Hopefully that's cleared up a few misconceptions!

Goodnight all, see you tomorrow xx.

[andy-hughes]

Naomi - // andy-hughes, actually calling people hypocrites, as you have, is rude - and it wasn't my intention to be helpful. //

Oddly enough, I didn't think it was - why change the habits of a lifetime!!

(Just kidding!! Sleep well xx)

[EDDIE51]

AH Sorry, but I CAN NOT ! accept that 'killing a rhino for it's horn is the same as killing a cow for it's meat'

I agree that there are good valid arguments against using animals for food , but to try to use them as an excuse for illegal slaughter of an endangered animal is absurd and illogical.

[naomi24]

andy-hughes, //I think the needless slaughter of any animal is a stain on humanity and is without any rational defence whatsoever. //

For once we agree. Goodnight.

[ToraToraTora]

so you stirred it Andy, you took advantage of someone's outrage to score cheap points out of some high minded superior philosophy that makes no sense. Right oh!

[Baldric]

That's what he's all about, Point Scoring.

[Spicerack]

///. A slaughter house even a Halal one still at least stuns the animals before killing them///

Some do, Eddie.

[EDDIE51]

''In conclusion, should anyone be in any doubt (Hi Naomi!) I think the needless slaughter of any animal is a stain on humanity and is without any rational defense whatsoever.''
I can 100% agree with that , but it in no way justifies your statement that ' Killing a Rhino for its Horn is no different to killing a cow for its meat'
Using a animal as food may be unacceptable to some and I accept their view,but slaughter of an animal specifically bred to be killed for food is not 'needless slaughter' , on the other hand a poacher gang killing a Rhino just to hack off its horn to be used as a worthless magic potion IS needless slaughter.

[anotheoldgit]

As most on here would know I would be the last person to defend Andy Hughes, but in this instance I feel that I must move in his defence.

In this case he has put up a perfectly valid argument, even though it may not be what others on here agree with, but after all isn't that what debate is all about?

But please let me add another fact into the argument and that is to say, there are only certain animals that seem to get the protection and sympathy as shown towards the Rhino and other alike wild animals.

Had it had been the slaughter of less attractive animals such as the crocodile, alligator, python, hyena or such, then I don't think many would be concerned enough to start a debate over them.

Are they not all God's creatures?

[dannyk13]

AOG
//there are only certain animals that seem to get the protection//
That is because they are an endangered species.

[andy-hughes]

TTT - // so you stirred it Andy ... "

No, I put forward an argument that suggests that your outrage is hypocritical if you eat meat, because both animals are slaughtered for money - the reasons why are not especially relavent.

// //you took advantage of someone's outrage to score cheap points ... //

I didn't 'take advantage at all. And I am not scoring points of any denomination. If you put up a statement on this site, you must excpect to be challenged sometimes, and called out if your arguments are spurious. I do, so does anyone else.

// ... out of some high minded superior philosophy that makes no sense. //

I am not offering a philosophy, high-minded or otherwise, I am pointing out that your outrage is hypercritical. If you disagree, then fine, but I haven't insulted you for your views, or accused you of being high-minded, or points scoring.

If your views don't stand up to scrutiny, or, as appears, you are too sensitive to stand a little analysis of your view, then maybe you should consider posting your outrage elsewhere, or do as I do - keep it to yourself.

[Sqad]

I agree with A-H and AOG.

You are upset at the site of an animal, killed in horrific manner for it's ivory horns, but do not bat an eyelid to sit down to a steak. The argument that your steak is from an animal bred for killing, surely is no consolation to the animal or indeed less traumatic.
If you feel badly for the rhino and i don't like it either, then why not become a vegetarian and object to the needless slaughter of ALL animals for whatever reason?

[ToraToraTora]

right so we've established that only vegetarians are allowed to be outraged at the senseless killing of endangered species, lest they be labelled as a hypocrite. Right oh! I assume by that token actual vegetarians are also hypocrites if they indulge in killing of any animal?

[Sqad]

^^^^ Correct.