May Says It Won't Be A Better Deal

[emmie]

if she goes, who would take her place at this late stage, and if the deal doesn't get through Parliament what happens next.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46250607

[jim360]

One can't "just leave" an institution like the EU, any more than one can "just separate" two conjoined twins. In both cares, delicate and careful surgery is required.

This fact largely explains the shape of the deal, and the reason there's a need for one at all: you could no more expect to just leave, without a lot of damage being done, than you could to take a saw to the two twins in question and expect things to turn out well.

[dannyk13]

Your analogy is complete rubbish Jim.We are not conjoined with the EU as much as you would like us to b.

[emmie]

for the Remainers did they really think nothing would change, had they won the vote. I don't want a European army as such, or the Euro, or being tied hand and foot to the EU, but the remainers seem out of touch with reality as some suggest the Brexiteers are.

[Kromovaracun]

It's also worth mentioning that The Leave Alliance - a coalition of pro-Brexit groups which includes one of the oldest ones in the country, the Campaign for an Independent Britain, which was established in 1969 - campaigned for an EEA Brexit and is still calling for it. This is not just a few eccentric individuals.

So, yes, you personally may well have voted to 'just leave', i.e. hard-Brexit. But it's not clear at all that the Brexit vote means that, and it never was.

[dannyk13]

Kromo, there were no qualifying statements on the ballot papers, just a simple leave or not.

[Kromovaracun]

Yes, and there were multiple conflicting messages in the preceding campaign about what 'leave' actually meant.

[jim360]

Of course we are, danny: our trade is conjoined, our laws are conjoined, our judicial system is conjoined, our economies are conjoined, our scientific researches are conjoined...

By the very argument of leave voters, the EU was an interference in our lives. How else can you describe that but as two interconnected -- that is, conjoined -- systems?

I'm getting bored of your point-blank, ill-informed dismissals of my analyses, based on nothing more than the ability to say "rubbish" and "garbage". Actually justify your dismissals, for a change.

[dannyk13]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12122349/This-is-what-the-ballot-paper-for-the-EU-referendum-vote-will-look-like.html
As I said earlier people had different reasons for wanting to leave but they wanted to leave.

[ichkeria]

Danny one good example of how we are “conjoined” if one wants to use that word is the 45 years of laws etc that have been passed by which we are governed. It’s the devil of a job unpicking all that. The killer tho is the Irish border issue. That’s one reason - possibly the main one - that May finally scupper the whole thing. I freely admit that the deal as it stands effectively kicks that can even further down the road. What with red lines and unpopular backstops it still doesn’t look like an issue with a solution to be

[emmie]

so if the Remainers are deluded and the Brexiteers, where does that leave us. When will the vote be in Parliament, as the member states are deciding soon on its ratification.

[ichkeria]

*without a solution

[Old_Geezer]

The vote didn't mention means, so included any means that results in us leaving, rather than extending and debating evermore.

(The present draft plan isn't part of that group as it includes parts to ensure we never leave, unless the EU decides, rather than, we leave.)

[jim360]

I think the point is clearly this: if all Leave voters want to Leave, but no two leave voters can agree on how to achieve that, and on what post-Brexit Britain will look like, it is no wonder that there's no coherent plan from current Brexiters in the Cabinet. No wonder, therefore, that there's also a complete mess of a deal; and, finally, no wonder that all Leavers fear "No Deal", because they would ultimately be held accountable for the mess that it means.

[dannyk13]

Ich //the 45 years of laws etc that have been passed by which we are governed. It’s the devil of a job unpicking all that.//
As I understand it those laws will be transferred into our laws to be sorted out at our leisure once we have left.

[emmie]

i don't think leavers fear No Deal, certainly none on here.

[dannyk13]

Jim //. Actually justify your dismissals, for a change.//
I will, as soon as you justify your blind allegiance to the EU.

[jim360]

Leavers here don't fear "no deal" because they've swallowed the other lie that all the problems it brings are merely a figment of the imagination of "Project Fear". But, as we're quickly learning, "Project Fear" was just a dismissive and highly inaccurate way of ignoring reality.

No doubt some or most of the worst effects can be avoided, but there still need to be the contingency plans to make sure we avoid these negative effects -- and, quite frankly, time has already run out to avoid some of them.

Hopefully, we won't learn just how naive those who ignored the risks were, and Parliament will either agree to this mess of a deal or find some other solution to avoid a no-deal scenario.

[Old_Geezer]

Law unpicking can't be that difficult. You copy the lot over wholesale then run through it changing references where necessary from EU items to UK ones. Anything missed will be decided on as it crops up, probably mostly in the courts and is interpreted by the judges. Must surely have already been done by now, it's been two years.

[jim360]

Oh, lord. No. Don't descend into "what-aboutism". Even if you are right about my "blind allegiance" -- which you are, of course, not -- then you can still conduct yourself far better unconditionally on your perceptions of my own apparent "blindness".

I've based my views on what I see, and what I see is the utter mess I'd anticipated, and hoped to avoid with my Remain vote. How this equates to blindness is anyone's guess; really, of course, it's just an excuse to avoid your own responsibility for what's happened, by voting for, and continuing to trumpet, a fantasy world.

[dannyk13]

Jim, we are always going to disagree. You are a hidebound remainer and I am believer in Brexit.