As Tomorrow’S Vote Is Off, What Next?

[sp1814]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-vote-delayed-postponed-theresa-may-commons-parliament-date-time-eu-deal-cabinet-a8675906.html

[maggiebee]

Ah Minty, but what about "united we stand, divided we fall". I despair of the whole sorry state we're in at the moment.

[naomi24]

The old boy was spot on again, Murraymints.

[naomi24]

maggiebee, //Ah Minty, but what about "united we stand, divided we fall". //

Did you think about that when you voted for Scottish independence?

[Kromovaracun]

//The one discussed in the debate and accepted as ok by both the PM and the MP who spoke.//

Specifically, what?

[murraymints]

we survived very well BEFORE the advent of the EEC....subsequently EU....there is NO reason why we can't again...without the shackles of Brussels and the bundesbank... notwithstanding the huge strain on our NHS..Housing and benefits systems we seem to be the cash cow to all and sundry..OOT OOT OOT ! no deal is the much preferred option methinks...

[mushroom25]

//I found this article about New Zealand. Those of my age will remember this early example of betrayal by a UK Government.//

i'm sure it's very interesting, V-E, but it's hidden behind a paywall. :-(

[jim360]

That ("the world") is completely meaningless, Naomi (as is the "OOT OOT OOT") above. We're already trading with, and a part of, "the world". The question becomes more about the following:

1. What future relationship do we want with the EU?
2. How are we going to accomplish this whilst transitioning from the current nature of our relationship with them?
3. In particular, how to accomplish this whilst still respecting the Good Friday Agreement and honouring our moral and legal obligations to the EU and its citizens?
4. As you put it before, we should "honour our obligations and leave". What obligations are those?

I could go on, but that should be enough to be going on with...

[Old_Geezer]

"We're already trading with, and a part of, "the world"."
Aye but only as much as we are allowed under the EU. Where are our trade deals not oked by the EU ?

[naomi24]

Jim, 'The world' is not completely meaningless. We're currently restricted. As for the rest, if you're going around the houses again and over old ground, which you appear to be doing, you'll forgive me if I say go on your own. It's very tedious.

[sp1814]

People who think we can return to the trading environment we had before the EEC need to be aware that was nearly 50 years ago. Every other country now has new trade agreements, and if just because we chose to go backwards (if that were possible) is no guarantee that others will join us.

The fact is - leavers are no happy with this version of 'Leave', because different people had different versions of leave.

We see this on AB!

[sp1814]

jim360

You've summarised some good points. If others cannot think of satisfactory answers, don't let that shut you up.

If those questions (and others) had been answered months ago, we wouldn't be in this pig sty now.

[naomi24]

I've yet to come across one Leaver who thinks this is leaving.

[sp1814]

naomi24

It's not leaving, but at the same time it's not staying.

It's the option that makes as many people angry as possible.

[naomi24]

I know that, sp - I said as much weeks ago. No one is getting what they voted for.

[Old_Geezer]

1. What future relationship do we want with the EU?
As good a one as the EU will allow.

2. How are we going to accomplish this whilst transitioning from the current nature of our relationship with them?
We just keep trying to negotiate, they will keep trying to thwart any progress.

3. In particular, how to accomplish this whilst still respecting the Good Friday Agreement and honouring our moral and legal obligations to the EU and its citizens?
The GFA can not be allowed to prevent a nation progressing as they must, but the obvious way would be EU acceptance of technological monitoring and allowing local trade to continue, as it is small fry compared to the rest of trade. If there is to be a small rewording of the GFA then so be it. Only those determined to cause trouble can object.

4. As you put it before, we should "honour our obligations and leave". What obligations are those?
The EU has yet to identify obligations that they want paying for and can show justification. Not for us to suggest them. It is enough that we will honour those that are found & agreed because we are an honourable nation.

I'm unsure any of those questions have much value, so the answers seem obvious. Worth noting that much of this is in the hands of an obstinate EU. Not in our court.

[diddlydo]

To all you Brexiteers - please just put up your hands and say "sorry - we didn't have the brains to understand the implications of voting to leave" and just let those of us who do understand the dire implications of leaving to reverse the leave vote.

[naomi24]

^Oh dear ....

[rich47]

Looks like Brexit may also be off.......along with the end of Trump
Whoopee!!!!

[mushroom25]

//we didn't have the brains to understand //

typical remainer response. no proper argument, so insult the opposition. yeah yeah all brexiters are thick brainless racist intolerants who robbed the young of their inheritance.....

[sp1814]

O_G

Perhaps the first question should be, "What trading terms can we build with the EU?"

If the answer is similar (eg. as good as can be managed), then we're run trouble again because the terms are so vague.

The thing with EU thwarting our negotiation stance - that's what you do in a negotiation. You try to get the best possible deal for your side.

The GFA may have been a piddling distraction, but now with the Tories leaning on the DUP for support, it's suddenly a big deal at the negotiating table.

UK obligations to the EU:

https://www.cam.ac.uk/sites/www.cam.ac.uk/files/waibel-the-uks-liability-for-financial-obligations-arising-out-of-its-eu-membership.pdf

We cannot simply get up and walk away from a contract we have signed. It would see our financial rating plummet (how can the UK be trusted again etc).