Remainers, Is This Really What You Want To Be A Part Of?

[youngmafbog]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6618789/Merkel-boasts-Germany-France-taken-steps-European-ARMY-signing-pact.html#comments

[sanmac]

In regards to Brexit, what other events in British history do you think have polarized the country to such an extent, if the opinions expressed on AB is any indication? Perhaps The War Of The Roses and/or The English Civil War...Yes, I realise that there is no war, but you know what I mean.

[Kromovaracun]

//Yoiu're very well equipped to reject other explanations, like a load of neo-Marxists in universities who hate Wetsern society are working out ways of subverting it by getting at kids in schools etc etc. //

Do you honestly think that's what happens on a normal day in modern universities? That people who come in to university are just blank slates who repeat whatever their tutor tells them?

Teaching undergraduate students is like herding cats. I dearly wish people absorbed information at university at the rate you seem to think they do. Society would be a very different place.

[jim360]

Ask sensible questions and I won't swerve from answering them. I won't dignify your conspiracy theories.

[jim360]

ve: I've spent a lot of time teaching in university, and try as I might, I struggle to squeeze in left-wing propaganda into maths and physics lessons.

I guess I could do it at a stretch, but it's almost -- hear me out here -- it's almost as if people go to University to learn about their chosen subjects. Crazy, right!

[naomi24]

Jim, //Ask sensible questions and I won't swerve from answering them.//

That’s not to say that you won’t swerve during the process. ;o)

[cassa333]

Well a fare few remainers seem to think leavers voted for this Brexit mess not understanding that we didn’t. It is just became a mess because we don’t have a Parliament able to do thier job properly.

Sooooo

By thier thinking yes they did vote for the EU army and all the further integration on the cards.

Well that’s using thier logic anyway.

[Marshwarble]

It's not what about what we want, you are being sold the moon on a stick here. What people need is the figures to get Brexit working. B O B.

[Zacs-Master]

'we don’t have a Parliament able to do thier job properly.'

Yet you want them to rule all our affairs. Strange leave voter 'logic' evidenced once again.

[New Judge]

//'we don’t have a Parliament able to do thier job properly.'

Yet you want them to rule all our affairs. Strange leave voter 'logic' evidenced once again.//

Not strange at all. They can be deselected at the next opportunity and another bunch of charlatans, crooks and time servers elected in their place. By contrast, when governed by the EU, the electorate gets the (mainly foreign) charlatans, crooks and time servers that are appointed for them (by other mainly foreign charlatans, crooks and time-servers).

[naomi24]

Zacs, the argument that the rubbish unelected who you can’t get rid of are better to rule you than the rubbish elected who you can get rid of doesn’t get any more rational or sensible – no matter how often you post it.

[youngmafbog]

"Yet you want them to rule all our affairs. Strange leave voter 'logic' evidenced once again."

No, it's not ideal but until we get someone who will come along and drain the swamp what choice is there?

Still better than your unelected officials.

[Zacs-Master]

The unelected officials were part of us being one of the most prosperous and respected trading nations in the world. Brexit has risked both those situations.

'They can be deselected at the next opportunity and another bunch of charlatans, crooks and time servers elected in their place'

Well, if you think that's logical gawd help us. Despite protestations about the EU being our wicked overlords (and silly stories about EU armies) their rulings affect/ed daily life very little. Sovereignty may come at a very heavy price.

[dannyk13]

ZM //(and silly stories about EU //
Angela Merkel is on record as having put this forward to Macron, so what us silly about that?

[jim360]

If Brexit were accompanied by a wider change in the political system of the country then it might actually be worth something, but -- so far as I can see, at least -- there's no real prospects of that happening. The short-term reason for this is that, no matter how badly the current government is doing, there's little sign that it will ever really be held accountable, because the opposition leader is just awful. But even is Corbyn were to disappear and be replaced by someone who is at least plausibly leadership material, still wouldn't really solve the problem, which is that the means of selecting politicians in the first place needs looking at again.

There's an irony for you -- didn't we have a referendum on that too? And yet I'd hope that the 2011 AV vote isn't regarded as the last word on the matter.

[naomi24]

//There's an irony for you -- didn't we have a referendum on that too? //

We did ..... and the result was accepted. There's irony for you.

[jim360]

The result in 2011 shouldn't have been so readily accepted, especially if it serves to kill off any serious attempt at electoral reform for ages. May well have completely backfired.

Oh, and in case you are wondering -- no, I'm not a sore loser from 2011, because I voted the other way.

[jim360]

For that matter, let's stop this nonsense about a result only being accepted if the opposition abandons its position, either. That is not, and never has been, how democracy works.

[cassa333]

Having opposing views and voicing those views is all fine and dandy but it is being used by the ones with power to overturn democracy that is the problem.

In fact I would estimate that probably more than half the MPs who want another referendum don’t have the guts to be honest and say they are actively using the ‘useful idiots’ to overturn democracy by pretending to be democratic.

[jim360]

The only way a second referendum can overturn the first, ultimately, is if the electorate as a whole changes its mind and votes the other way. I can certainly sympathise with the idea that offering the referendum in the first place is either cynical or undemocratic, but none of that will matter once the vote itself takes place -- assuming, of course, that you trust the electorate to reach a sensible and informed decision.

Since the 2016 referendum was also held for cynical, undemocratic reasons -- it was Cameron's failed attempt to unite his party and quash Euroscepticism; the idea that the public might actually vote Leave clearly never realistically occurred to him, otherwise he'd have done far more to prepare the country for that outcome -- since it was also held, as I say, on cynical grounds, there's no particular reason to be especially critical of the purpose behind a possible second one.

[jim360]

Meanwhile, it is interesting to note that opposition to Theresa May's deal has apparently softened somewhat in the last few days. There's still the issue of the Backstop, which most Brexit MPs oppose but which the EU has so far insisted is necessary and cannot be time-limited; but, as NJ and others have suggested, there is plenty else in the deal to find distasteful.

I suspect it will be better to start a separate thread, but all the same, it raises an interesting question: to those Brexit supporters who do not want May's deal, would they prefer that to staying in the EU properly, or vice versa?