Civil Unrest Anyone?

[diddlydo]

Who'd like to join those like me in protest against Johnson's undemocratic behaviour?

[Calicogirl]

The thing everyone on both sides seems to be losing sight of in the wild clamour to have their own way is that each and every person has a right, and in fact a duty, to do what they consider right for the country, and that includes Remainers. I still hold that leaving the EU will be catastrophic economically, socially and will lead to unprecendented hardship for residents of the UK.
Do you seriously expect me and the other millions of people who see this very clearly to simply sit by and do nothing?
Is there not a saying in order for evil to prevail all it takes is good men to do nothing. That is why we are not doing nothing, we see this as a great and possibly irreparable evil and I will fight it to the bitter end.
What's right is not always popular and what is popular is not always right.

[Calicogirl]

I believe my moral and political stances have always been well known on here VE and have not changed according to which right wing populist monstrosity has the ear of the gutter press at all. Please tell me where I have deviated from my own personal code. Ever.

[pixie374]

That applies, cal, until there is a public vote. Disagreeing with the result is one thing and obviously fair. Wanting to overturn democracy, is something entirely different.

[Calicogirl]

It was never anything other than an advisory referendum though Pixie with all due respect, and not something which should ever have been put to the people whatever the outcome, so I do not consider that people who genuinely believe it harmful for the country are attempting to thwart democracy, I think they are trying to preserve it. Besides all the Brexiteers were all very happy when Farage said ahead of the vote that if it went the way of Remain, he would continue to fight to leave Europe.

[pixie374]

At first it was advisory- until they promised to carry it through... whether it should have been out to the vote is irrelevant now. It was, and we got a clear answer. To do anything else now, other than leave can only be thwarting/ ignoring democracy. And nobody then, even the most staunch remainer, will ever trust them again. We need to do better than that.

[vetuste_ennemi]

I understand both points you're making, CalicoGirl.

Here's one:

"I still hold that leaving the EU will be catastrophic economically, socially and will lead to unprecendented hardship for residents of the UK.
Do you seriously expect me and the other millions of people who see this very clearly to simply sit by and do nothing?"

Well, young lady, the first time I voted was in Croydon North West whose recumbent Tory MP was the then speaker of the House of Commons, Bernard Weatherill (or whatever it was decptively called at that time).

The consequences (judged by a young and possibly ignorant VE) was that some hitherto cheap goods like sugar and lamb would become more expensive because of tariffs imposed on Jamaican and New Zealand farmers.

In my case, of course, my objections to Common Market membership were based entirely on selfish economic considerations, but there would have been a few who considered the consequences from the point of view of the farmers whose markets had been destroyed

Did I "simply sit by and do nothing"? Yes, there were more people who were concerned about BMWs than were bothered by Caribbean sugar farmers.

I didn't like it. But I lumped it.

[Jackdaw33]

//...and not something which should ever have been put to the people...\\

There speaks a true democrat!!!

[vetuste_ennemi]

The elision is ("when Ted heath was determined to join the Common Market" ...or whatever it was deceptively called at that time

[vetuste_ennemi]

Oh dear, spent too much time in a reply not to have noticed this:

"It was never anything other than an advisory referendum".

Only a deliberate liar would say that. I assume CalicoGirl is not such.

In which case, CalicoGirl, what point are you trying to make?

[Jackdaw33]

Heath was the worst PM in my living memory. Arrogant, cold, dismissive of democracy, he ruined this country in more ways than one and we have been paying the price ever since. His fanaticism for the EEC knew no bounds. The only thing I could say in his favour is that he was such a disaster that he paved the way for Margaret Thatcher.

[vetuste_ennemi]

I repeat the metaphor about Heath's negotiations for entry to the Common Market: at the last knocking the they demanded the surrender of our fishing rights/

Brennus chucking his sword on to the scale: "Vae victis."

[vetuste_ennemi]

The vanquished, of course, have to accept their fate, but self-imposed servility is something else. Where did that come from?

[Jackdaw33]

How apt. 'Woe to the losers'. Hopefully with Boris it will soon be 'gaudium triumphantibus'.

[vetuste_ennemi]

(I don't trust Boris, but to date all the rhetoric - and the dirty tricks prorogation of Parliament to thwart the other dirty tricksters - I like. But when the other lot come back with a "deal" 'cos they want their £39 billion will he stick to his guns, or will he do Maybot Lite?)

[Jackdaw33]

Boris dare not do a May. He has so much goodwill behind him which will disappear should he falter. For the moment I trust him to do what he has set out to do.

[naomi24]

Calicogirl, //Is there not a saying in order for evil to prevail all it takes is good men to do nothing. That is why we are not doing nothing…//

Evil? Spare us the piety, please! A latter day Joan of Arc you ain’t!

//Besides all the Brexiteers were all very happy when Farage said ahead of the vote that if it went the way of Remain, he would continue to fight to leave Europe.//

Indeed – but how you equate that with riding roughshod over the democratic process is anyone’s guess.

[Bobbisox1]

When is this protest to be taking place ?
I might be washing my hair

[dannyk13]

Just to clarify matters regarding proroguing which is a regular part of government :-
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-parliament-prorogation-explained

[Zacs-Master]

Surely this is a democratic process? A democratically elected Govt using parliamentary law. Surely nothing more democratic than that?

[Old_Geezer]

"The thing everyone on both sides seems to be losing sight of in the wild clamour to have their own way is that each and every person has a right, and in fact a duty, to do what they consider right for the country, and that includes Remainers."

Indeed. And what they should consider right is upholding the democratic decision we all made between us. What they should consider very wrong is delaying and trying the thwart it thus causing issues/problems for their nation. Remainers specifically had a chance to convince folk that losing sovereignty and being dictated to by an unelected foreign elite was a good thing, before the referendum. We all know gains come at a cost, and don't need them exaggerated in the hope of swaying the weak and giving succour to the EU. At this point what is right for the country must be, and has been for some years, to get behind the change and make it work; not to be destructive simply because they didn't get their personal view of the situation accepted.