News1 min ago
Covid Abusers, Why Aren’t The Police Doung More
96 Answers
Maybe this is one of the reasons why we are struggling so badly in this pandemic crisis?
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What is it going to take for the government to get properly on top of public order matters?
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What is it going to take for the government to get properly on top of public order matters?
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//...some people don’t understand that they have to stay in their own locale//
But they don't - as I think I've demonstrated.
//.. and believe driving to anywhere you fancy in the UK is acceptable?//
I'm not arguing whether or not it is acceptable - I never have. I'm arguing that (in England) there is no requirement to remain "in your locale." You clearly said that it was:
"...travelling 250 miles is not permitted under the ‘all non essential travel must cease’ order.
For the hard of understanding.).
And you are wrong. The last bit was unnecessarily patronising and particularly crass since what you accused others of being in ignorance of you were ignorant of yourself. If the government wants to confine people to their own local area they should legislate for it. There is no need to dance around semantics. The legislation is quite clear. The problem is you seem not to have read it - or if you have you haven't understood it.
But they don't - as I think I've demonstrated.
//.. and believe driving to anywhere you fancy in the UK is acceptable?//
I'm not arguing whether or not it is acceptable - I never have. I'm arguing that (in England) there is no requirement to remain "in your locale." You clearly said that it was:
"...travelling 250 miles is not permitted under the ‘all non essential travel must cease’ order.
For the hard of understanding.).
And you are wrong. The last bit was unnecessarily patronising and particularly crass since what you accused others of being in ignorance of you were ignorant of yourself. If the government wants to confine people to their own local area they should legislate for it. There is no need to dance around semantics. The legislation is quite clear. The problem is you seem not to have read it - or if you have you haven't understood it.
From the GOV.UK website:
If you live in a Tier 4 area, you must follow the rules below. This means that you cannot leave or be outside of the place you are living unless you have a reasonable excuse. You cannot meet other people indoors, including over the Christmas and New Year period, unless you live with them, or they are part of your support bubble. Outdoors, you can only meet one person from another household.
If you live in a Tier 4 area, you must follow the rules below. This means that you cannot leave or be outside of the place you are living unless you have a reasonable excuse. You cannot meet other people indoors, including over the Christmas and New Year period, unless you live with them, or they are part of your support bubble. Outdoors, you can only meet one person from another household.
See under Travelling out of a Tier 4 area. https:/
Travelling to a Tier 4 area from a Tier 1, 2 or 3 area
You should not travel into a Tier 4 area from another part of the UK, other than for reasons such as:
travel to work where you cannot work from home
travel to education and for caring responsibilities
to visit (including staying overnight with) those in your support bubble – or your childcare bubble for childcare
to attend hospital, GP and other medical appointments or visits where you have had an accident or are concerned about your health
to provide emergency assistance, and to avoid injury or illness, or to escape a risk of harm (such as domestic abuse)
You should not travel into a Tier 4 area from another part of the UK, other than for reasons such as:
travel to work where you cannot work from home
travel to education and for caring responsibilities
to visit (including staying overnight with) those in your support bubble – or your childcare bubble for childcare
to attend hospital, GP and other medical appointments or visits where you have had an accident or are concerned about your health
to provide emergency assistance, and to avoid injury or illness, or to escape a risk of harm (such as domestic abuse)
NJ
// Travelling out of a Tier 4 area
You must stay at home and not leave your Tier 4 area, other than for legally permitted reasons such as:
* travel to work where you cannot work from home
* travel to education and for caring responsibilities
* visit or stay overnight with people in your support bubble, or your childcare bubble for childcare purposes
* attend hospital, GP and other medical appointments or visits where you have had an accident or are concerned about your health
* to provide emergency assistance, and to avoid injury or illness, or to escape a risk of harm (such as domestic abuse)
The full list of exceptions will be published in the Regulations. //
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// Travelling out of a Tier 4 area
You must stay at home and not leave your Tier 4 area, other than for legally permitted reasons such as:
* travel to work where you cannot work from home
* travel to education and for caring responsibilities
* visit or stay overnight with people in your support bubble, or your childcare bubble for childcare purposes
* attend hospital, GP and other medical appointments or visits where you have had an accident or are concerned about your health
* to provide emergency assistance, and to avoid injury or illness, or to escape a risk of harm (such as domestic abuse)
The full list of exceptions will be published in the Regulations. //
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The idiocy continues at full speed.
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Fiddling while Rome burns springs to mind.
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Fiddling while Rome burns springs to mind.
What the three of you have kindly provided is guidance. It is not legislation. It is no use the government providing guidance which says you "must not" do this, that or the other unless they have legislation to enforce it. The Tier 4 legislation is shown in Schedule 3A of this document:
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This is what the police can enforce. This is what public must comply with. This is what would be cited in any prosecution. As far as I can see there is no restriction on movement around the country. The government, whether by accident or design, is publishing guidance documents which contain information which is in conflict with the legislation they have passed. They're telling people they are bound by restrictions which they have not troubled to enact in legislation. - the start of a slippery slope, I think. So I'm not surprised people are confused. I'm also not surprised that individual police officers are exceeding their powers. They don't generally trawl through legislation - they just do as they are told. If they've been told to comply with the guidance document they will send people home from the Lake District if they come from far afield. But so long as those people are there with a "reasonable excuse" (and none of the excuses provided in the legislation are bound by any distance restrictions) they are within the law.
Please don't say "Ah but they shouldn't do it." I'm not arguing about what they should and shouldn't do, I'm explaining what they must and mustn't do.
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This is what the police can enforce. This is what public must comply with. This is what would be cited in any prosecution. As far as I can see there is no restriction on movement around the country. The government, whether by accident or design, is publishing guidance documents which contain information which is in conflict with the legislation they have passed. They're telling people they are bound by restrictions which they have not troubled to enact in legislation. - the start of a slippery slope, I think. So I'm not surprised people are confused. I'm also not surprised that individual police officers are exceeding their powers. They don't generally trawl through legislation - they just do as they are told. If they've been told to comply with the guidance document they will send people home from the Lake District if they come from far afield. But so long as those people are there with a "reasonable excuse" (and none of the excuses provided in the legislation are bound by any distance restrictions) they are within the law.
Please don't say "Ah but they shouldn't do it." I'm not arguing about what they should and shouldn't do, I'm explaining what they must and mustn't do.
As far as I can see there is no restriction on movement around the country.
I give up. Odd then that nobody yet appears to have successfully challenged their fines for Covid breaches, when you’d have thought there would have been at least one legal eagle looking to create a cause celebre.
Interesting reading here though.
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I give up. Odd then that nobody yet appears to have successfully challenged their fines for Covid breaches, when you’d have thought there would have been at least one legal eagle looking to create a cause celebre.
Interesting reading here though.
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//Odd then that nobody yet appears to have successfully challenged their fines for Covid breaches,..//
It’s not that odd, actually.
Very few people have been given fixed penalties (FPs) for (allegedly) being too far away from home. The majority of FPs have been for transgressing the law on “gatherings”. These are well defined and police are entitled to enforce them. Apart from that, the principle offence in the Tier 4 legislation (where one might be accused of “straying too far from home”) is being outside of the place you live without a “reasonable excuse”. If a police officer has reasonable grounds to suspect this (and he might do if he goes by the guidance document the government has published) he has powers to order you to return home and use force to either make you do so or arrest you if you fail to comply. Few people, faced with that choice during an afternoon out with their family will opt for arrest. So by then the damage has been done. You have been forced to comply with a law that does not exist.
You shouldn’t get me wrong with this. I think people taking lengthy trips to the Lake District or elsewhere just for an afternoon out in the present circumstances are foolish and selfish. But I don’t like to see legislation wrongly applied (backed by the threat of criminal sanctions) by means of the government putting some misleading “guidance” on their website. If they want people to stop moving around the country unnecessarily it is perfectly easy for them to legislate for it. But in the UK everything is allowed unless it is specifically forbidden so if they want to forbid an activity they should properly legislate for it.
It’s not that odd, actually.
Very few people have been given fixed penalties (FPs) for (allegedly) being too far away from home. The majority of FPs have been for transgressing the law on “gatherings”. These are well defined and police are entitled to enforce them. Apart from that, the principle offence in the Tier 4 legislation (where one might be accused of “straying too far from home”) is being outside of the place you live without a “reasonable excuse”. If a police officer has reasonable grounds to suspect this (and he might do if he goes by the guidance document the government has published) he has powers to order you to return home and use force to either make you do so or arrest you if you fail to comply. Few people, faced with that choice during an afternoon out with their family will opt for arrest. So by then the damage has been done. You have been forced to comply with a law that does not exist.
You shouldn’t get me wrong with this. I think people taking lengthy trips to the Lake District or elsewhere just for an afternoon out in the present circumstances are foolish and selfish. But I don’t like to see legislation wrongly applied (backed by the threat of criminal sanctions) by means of the government putting some misleading “guidance” on their website. If they want people to stop moving around the country unnecessarily it is perfectly easy for them to legislate for it. But in the UK everything is allowed unless it is specifically forbidden so if they want to forbid an activity they should properly legislate for it.
You shouldn’t get me wrong with this. I think people taking lengthy trips to the Lake District or elsewhere just for an afternoon out in the present circumstances are foolish and selfish. But I don’t like to see legislation wrongly applied (backed by the threat of criminal sanctions) by means of the government putting some misleading “guidance” on their website.
Fair enough, apologies if I was a little obtuse in earlier posts, I just find it mind boggling that people can’t follow basic rules, they’re really not that difficult.
Fair enough, apologies if I was a little obtuse in earlier posts, I just find it mind boggling that people can’t follow basic rules, they’re really not that difficult.
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