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Gordon Brown, "Uk Could Become A Failed State" ......
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Well if it does it'll be primarily your beloved Noo Labour's fault me old china, for enacting the devolution catastrophe. Is it time to reverse that and bring the Union back together? TBH I think England will thrive without the millstones of Wales, Scotland and NI anyway so it's them that need to get their April in gear.
Well if it does it'll be primarily your beloved Noo Labour's fault me old china, for enacting the devolution catastrophe. Is it time to reverse that and bring the Union back together? TBH I think England will thrive without the millstones of Wales, Scotland and NI anyway so it's them that need to get their April in gear.
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I’m afraid I really don’t get where you’re coming from. When you said this: "...but the British seem to be rapidly giving up on Britain." I assumed that by “Britain” you meant the political entity that was Britain. But in the last few posts you seem more concerned about the niceties of what the remainder should be called were Scotland to gain independence
13:26 Tue 26th Jan 2021
I consider myself British long before I consider myself English... however much I like England it is a small (but interesting) country that happens to be the place of my birth... The UK, however flawed, does at least mean something.
Sadly I think I am in a minority there and I think this thread bears that out...
Sadly I think I am in a minority there and I think this thread bears that out...
\\ 14,01, "I do not want (MY ) country, disestablished "
OMG, TTT is cracking up , he thinks he owns England now, bless him .//
gulliver, there is an American patriotic song and the first line is 'my country, 'tis of thee', sung by millions every year. Do you think that each individual of these millions all believe that America belongs to them alone?
OMG, TTT is cracking up , he thinks he owns England now, bless him .//
gulliver, there is an American patriotic song and the first line is 'my country, 'tis of thee', sung by millions every year. Do you think that each individual of these millions all believe that America belongs to them alone?
//I do not think we should give up on preserving the union just because it's difficult.//
But the only people continually harping on about devolution or their independence are the smaller countries. There’s nothing particularly in the Union for England except a bill. It’s a “nice to have.” Quaint, probably unique but of no great value. England will find somewhere else to service the nation’s submarines, Scotland will find someone else to give them money. It’s really not worth the bother of maintaining good relations with a troublesome neighbour.
I would give the Scots the benefit of the doubt and allow them one more referendum, solely on the basis that they might not have envisaged the possibility of leaving the EU as part of the UK (though they should have been well aware of it when they voted in 2014). The Irish could have a vote with a “Remain in the UK with a border with the Republic” or “Independence” option. I’m not overly fussed about the Welsh. They seem to realise what side their bread is buttered and now they seem to have kicked their habit of setting fire to English owned cottages, they don’t kick up too much fuss. And they do have some interesting narrow gauge railways. Whatever the outcomes the referendums would not be repeated for at least 25 years and there would be no applications from leavers to rejoin the UK entertained for the same period. At the bottom of all ballot papers there should be printed the words “Be careful what you wish for.”
Of course, in all of this, nobody has ever considered what English voters might want in terms of a “United Kingdom.” There may come a point when they get a little miffed with continually shelling out to support the minor participants whilst being branded Wicked Imperialists. But for the moment they have other matters to deal with (as have the Scots, Welsh and Irish).
But the only people continually harping on about devolution or their independence are the smaller countries. There’s nothing particularly in the Union for England except a bill. It’s a “nice to have.” Quaint, probably unique but of no great value. England will find somewhere else to service the nation’s submarines, Scotland will find someone else to give them money. It’s really not worth the bother of maintaining good relations with a troublesome neighbour.
I would give the Scots the benefit of the doubt and allow them one more referendum, solely on the basis that they might not have envisaged the possibility of leaving the EU as part of the UK (though they should have been well aware of it when they voted in 2014). The Irish could have a vote with a “Remain in the UK with a border with the Republic” or “Independence” option. I’m not overly fussed about the Welsh. They seem to realise what side their bread is buttered and now they seem to have kicked their habit of setting fire to English owned cottages, they don’t kick up too much fuss. And they do have some interesting narrow gauge railways. Whatever the outcomes the referendums would not be repeated for at least 25 years and there would be no applications from leavers to rejoin the UK entertained for the same period. At the bottom of all ballot papers there should be printed the words “Be careful what you wish for.”
Of course, in all of this, nobody has ever considered what English voters might want in terms of a “United Kingdom.” There may come a point when they get a little miffed with continually shelling out to support the minor participants whilst being branded Wicked Imperialists. But for the moment they have other matters to deal with (as have the Scots, Welsh and Irish).
"There’s nothing particularly in the Union for England except a bill. It’s a “nice to have.” Quaint, probably unique but of no great value. "
The Union is what makes England Britain - something bigger than itself with a greater presence on the world stage, that exemplifies countries with long rivalries and different cultures binding together in common cause to make themselves stronger. That's not a "nice-to-have" - it is fundamental to what Britain is. "England" "Scotland" and "Wales" are just a few more little countries on the fringes with long and interesting histories but not of particular relevance to the modern world... The UK is something bigger than that. It is astounding to me that a British person would dismiss this as valueless... but the British seem to be rapidly giving up on Britain. Perhaps our country does not deserve to survive if it is not capable of compromise or long-term thinking. What a tragic thought...
The Union is what makes England Britain - something bigger than itself with a greater presence on the world stage, that exemplifies countries with long rivalries and different cultures binding together in common cause to make themselves stronger. That's not a "nice-to-have" - it is fundamental to what Britain is. "England" "Scotland" and "Wales" are just a few more little countries on the fringes with long and interesting histories but not of particular relevance to the modern world... The UK is something bigger than that. It is astounding to me that a British person would dismiss this as valueless... but the British seem to be rapidly giving up on Britain. Perhaps our country does not deserve to survive if it is not capable of compromise or long-term thinking. What a tragic thought...
//...but the British seem to be rapidly giving up on Britain.//
That's not correct. I'll concentrate on Scotland for the moment as different circumstances apply to the other two. There is a large contingent in Scotland that craves independence. Just how large is not clear, but it's certainly large and may be a majority. I've no real understanding why that is as it seems to me that Scotland does quite well out of the Union. But it is what it is.
In the forthcoming Scottish elections there is little doubt that the SNP will near enough sweep the board. The SNP, rather like the Brexit Party and UKIP before them, has only one reason for its existence - to secure independence for Scotland. Running the devolved government is an inconvenience for them but one they will bear because they hope it will only be temporary before they win the major prize.
More than 90% of the UK's population lives elsewhere other than Scotland. But they have no influence whatsoever on what happens in Scotland regarding their quest for independence from their Kingdom. So tell me what it is that the remainder of the British can do to prevent Scottish Independence if that is what the Scots want and they are granted it. Tell me how you consider they are "giving up on Britain". The people who are giving up on Britain are the Scots who crave their independence. If they succeed they will no longer be part of the United Kingdom. You might as well accuse the EU27 of "giving up on the European Union" when the UK sought to leave.
That's not correct. I'll concentrate on Scotland for the moment as different circumstances apply to the other two. There is a large contingent in Scotland that craves independence. Just how large is not clear, but it's certainly large and may be a majority. I've no real understanding why that is as it seems to me that Scotland does quite well out of the Union. But it is what it is.
In the forthcoming Scottish elections there is little doubt that the SNP will near enough sweep the board. The SNP, rather like the Brexit Party and UKIP before them, has only one reason for its existence - to secure independence for Scotland. Running the devolved government is an inconvenience for them but one they will bear because they hope it will only be temporary before they win the major prize.
More than 90% of the UK's population lives elsewhere other than Scotland. But they have no influence whatsoever on what happens in Scotland regarding their quest for independence from their Kingdom. So tell me what it is that the remainder of the British can do to prevent Scottish Independence if that is what the Scots want and they are granted it. Tell me how you consider they are "giving up on Britain". The people who are giving up on Britain are the Scots who crave their independence. If they succeed they will no longer be part of the United Kingdom. You might as well accuse the EU27 of "giving up on the European Union" when the UK sought to leave.
A well reasoned post from NJ at 16.13. What stands out for me is how "My country" is variously referred to (in different posts) as Britain, the United Kingdom (UK), and England, apparently interchangeably.
England and Britain are geographically defined while the UK is a political/administrative entity. What so often gets forgotten/ignored is that Britain is England together with the rest and that the British Isles include the island of Ireland (north and south). Being British is politically "requisitioned" by the UK whereas, whatever the political borders, geographically all the people of the British Isles will always be British. Therefore, being British is not dependent on belonging to the UK. The matter of who is American is similar in nature - not just the citizens of the USA but all citizens of any of the countries in North, central and South America are American - the USA has monopolised the term (at least popularly) like the UK has monopolised "British" as a nationality. In both cases it has been accepted but it is, strictly speaking, inaccurate in the implied exclusion and therefore wrong.
England and Britain are geographically defined while the UK is a political/administrative entity. What so often gets forgotten/ignored is that Britain is England together with the rest and that the British Isles include the island of Ireland (north and south). Being British is politically "requisitioned" by the UK whereas, whatever the political borders, geographically all the people of the British Isles will always be British. Therefore, being British is not dependent on belonging to the UK. The matter of who is American is similar in nature - not just the citizens of the USA but all citizens of any of the countries in North, central and South America are American - the USA has monopolised the term (at least popularly) like the UK has monopolised "British" as a nationality. In both cases it has been accepted but it is, strictly speaking, inaccurate in the implied exclusion and therefore wrong.
"The people who are giving up on Britain are the Scots who crave their independence. If they succeed they will no longer be part of the United Kingdom. You might as well accuse the EU27 of "giving up on the European Union" when the UK sought to leave. "
The EU can continue fine without the UK as a member... there is no UK without Scotland so yes I do think the British (English and Scots) are giving up on Britain if they allow it to be disestablished.
"So tell me what it is that the remainder of the British can do to prevent Scottish Independence if that is what the Scots want and they are granted it."
as I said above I am uncertain if it can be stopped now... but I think Brown's suggestion of a reformed second chamber might have a chance. I also think in general the attitude that Scotland should shut up because they are dependent on money made in England contributes significantly to their desire to leave.
KARL
I am well aware that "britain" is a geographical term... but it doesn't mean awfully much in terms of identity and when people say "Britain" they always mean the UK as a country because it is shorter than saying "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"... however "technically" inaccurate it might be, the "British" are the citizens of the UK. Personally I would prefer the country was not done away with but I think my position is a minority one and most people seem not to care.
The EU can continue fine without the UK as a member... there is no UK without Scotland so yes I do think the British (English and Scots) are giving up on Britain if they allow it to be disestablished.
"So tell me what it is that the remainder of the British can do to prevent Scottish Independence if that is what the Scots want and they are granted it."
as I said above I am uncertain if it can be stopped now... but I think Brown's suggestion of a reformed second chamber might have a chance. I also think in general the attitude that Scotland should shut up because they are dependent on money made in England contributes significantly to their desire to leave.
KARL
I am well aware that "britain" is a geographical term... but it doesn't mean awfully much in terms of identity and when people say "Britain" they always mean the UK as a country because it is shorter than saying "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"... however "technically" inaccurate it might be, the "British" are the citizens of the UK. Personally I would prefer the country was not done away with but I think my position is a minority one and most people seem not to care.
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