What Is The Real Death Figure For Covid?

[10ClarionSt]

This question was the main headline on the front of the Daily Mail on Saturday, Feb 27th followed up by a 4-page feature inside. Relatives of some dead people are angry because they say their deceased relative didn't have Covid but it appears on their death certificate. Some say they had tested negative. So what is the real figure? Users of this website will already know that I think the figures are lies, exaggeration and alarmist. They are though, aren't they?

[bobbinwales]

Its amazing to me woofgang that people still dont understand how the figures are compiled and still get confused by whats on a death certificate (allways been an issue) or a hyperthetical case of someone testing posative and then run over by a bus as if that would make much diffrence to the big picture. And if we'er overcounting so's most other countries (exclduing the Russias Chinas who fudge them and some 3rd world ones that dont know).

It seem's pointless to me for some to be clutching at straws to prove a point that isnt there.

Yes there is a debate about with covid/of covid but there still dead and may not have been without covid.

Maybe those who think the figures are way out of line with reality could say how they think the figure should be counted.

If anything we'er undercounting- anyone remember when we changed are definition and are running total for deaths fell by 10000 or was it 20000 overnight

[burlyshirley]

Yes of course it happens. My friend's Mum died in a care home and they said that she categorically did not have covid, but there it was on her death certificate, much to my friend's annoyance.

[woofgang]

oh I think they do understand....I mean how hard is it to understand the excess death figures?
Its no argument (and they know this) that the figures are not accurate to the last dead body.
Its no argument (and they know this) that they personally don't know anyone who has been ill or died.
Its no argument (and they know this) that death certificates can be innaccurate.
The fact remains that there are (figurative) piles of dead bodies and they weren't killed by meteorites.

[bobbinwales]

so you realise your friends mum wont be in the headline figures then burleyshirley?
Why would a doctor put it on there tho if it wasnt true? Maybe its easier thats all I can think of. Or maybe the doctor found evidence that care home staff did'nt

[woofgang]

I am not sure why it would be annoying to have covid on a death cert? ....and who are the "they" who said she didn't have it.

[Apc2604]

Perhaps they are alarmist for a good reason. To frighten those who believe Covid is no worse than flu and that all the rules are stupid. So they ignore them! But that won't work. Stupid people will remain stupid. There is no doubt that the number of deaths are high and it's a bloody cruel disease that has caused massive suffering and grief worldwide.

[burlyshirley]

The care home told my friend her Mum didn't have it and I have no idea why the doctor put it on the death certificate, maybe you should hunt him down and ask him.

[Apc2604]

Woofie. Our friend is quite upset that Covid is on his father's death certificate because it's a lie. I would be too.

[burlyshirley]

Oh and I'm not sure why my friend was annoyed, but I'll ask her and get back to you - maybe ....

[burlyshirley]

And of course all these lies on the death certificates bump up the figures dramatically.

[ladybirder]

This is what is on my SiL's Death Certificate. Would this be counted as a COVID death?

Death Certificate.
1(a) Heart Failure with Preserved Ejection Fraction.
1(b) Ischaemic Heart Disease.
2. Covid Pneumonitis, Atrial Fibrillation, Chronic Kidney Disease, Vascular Dementia.

[Bobbisox1]

Don't know the answer but it will no doubt 'save money' by not having post mortems ( just a thought)

[steg]

Covid seems to be the only legible word a doctor can write, it’s usually just dots and squiggles they use

[Apc2604]

Yes it would Ladybirder. If Covid is on the list anywhere it's counted on our death numbers. And if a Covid test proved positive during the 28 day period before death ot will be on the certificate regardless.

The problem our friend had with that is that his father's test only a short time before death was negative!

[ladybirder]

apc, my SiL had been in hospital 18 days before she tested positive with Cvd. She died on the 20th day.

[bobbinwales]

Lots still dont get it. The headline figure we see every day does NOT depend on whats on the death certificate. Its only counted if the died within 28 days of a posative test. Yes if they had bad underlying conditions they would of died at some point (like we all will eventully) but the covid certainly would of speeded up there death, maybe by days, weeks , months or years.

There are 2 other counts as we've mentioned but am coming to teh same conclusion as woofgang in that some are delibrately misunderstanding for some strange reason only they know

[New Judge]

I understand perfectly the difference between the two lots of figures (as I think I made clear from my earlier post). In the two examples I knew about there was no reason at all to put Covid on the death certificate. There was no indication or evidence that either had suffered from Covid. There are other examples noted on this thread. So why is it done? You cannot be surprised if people become suspicious of what they are being told.

[teacake44]

I like to put it bluntly, the government don't really want you to know how many have died, that shouldn't have died from none covid. This would show a massive failing in care, even though they insist that the NHS is open to none covid. That's it really. How can the NHS be open when they have millions waiting for urgent treatment?

[Sqad]

Without a post mortem, doctors have always been careless when identifying the cause of death on the certication.
It has never been a big deal in the majority of cases except of the apocryphal case where a Dr was about to write heart failure as the cause of death but the pathologist pointed out the knife in the back of the corpse.

Patients die of Covid mostly with a negative Covid test, but Covid is still the cause of death.

Yes......the figures are exaggerated but not with any ulterior motives.

This is a pandemic with an unexeptable death rate, so what is the point of quibbling about the possibility of exaggeration ?....again and again.

[rowanwitch]

There will be a number of those who might have died, who might still be alive had the NHS not been dealing with a pandemic .There will be a number of deaths that will be indirectly due to covid that won't be recorded as such, missed screening, fear of attending hospital, no face to face a gp appointments, some of those deaths will not play out too later as missed or late diagnosis leaves people beyond the point of effective treatment. We are going to need more hospice beds over the next couple of years.