Do We Really Care Enough?

[Khandro]

https://thespectator.com/topic/cowardice-west-ukraine-response/

[douglas9401]

'We' seem to have cared quite substantially so far, supply-wise.

[davebro3]

Of course people care & Liddle is an ass. Men (of a certain age) outside Russia despise Putin not idolise him.

The question is - do we care enough to go to all-out war with Russia? I think the answer is NO.

But we elect goverments to decide our country's stance and action in these matters.

[naomi24]

I cant read the article.  What more does he want us to do?

[Old_Geezer]

Not signing up as I anticipate requests for access to my wealth. If Liddle feels we need to do more let him volunteer for the Ukrainian front line.

[ichkeria]

He's right about the spinelessness of the west. And about the problems with a democracy versus an autocracy'. Although  less right about the idea that Russia can win: it can't - though  I suppose it depends what you mean by "win".

The US for example could send enough of its spare weaponry to send the Russians packing in months - none of that need go through congress. Chancellor Scholz has now taken on the role of chief talker-up about aid for Ukraine while hokding out in the dispatch of Taurus missiles: something the Bundestag had now called for.

John McCain was right: Russia pounces where it senses weakness retreats where it senses strength: a fact we don't seem to be able to grasp 
 

[ichkeria]

Somehow it let me read the whole thing 

[ichkeria]

But it seems too long to paste 

[THECORBYLOON]

You can read it via this link

https://archive.ph/FdUea

[Khandro]

dave.// But we elect governments to decide our country's stance and action in these matters.//

But that elected shower decides that the British taxpayer (which includes me folks!) should spend £7 million a day on hotel accommodation for people who cross the channel illegally.

To paraphrase Boris;  why not spend it on fully supporting a bullied Western county fighting for its own democratic existence ? 

[New Judge]

"To paraphrase Boris;  why not spend it on fully supporting a bullied Western county fighting for its own democratic existence?"

At the risk of derailing the thread, what do yo then do with the people you have allowed to land in small boats? 

[Khandro]

NJ //At the risk of derailing the thread, what do yo then do with the people you have allowed to land in small boats? //

I was in charge, wouldn't let them land in the first place. Their feet would not touch the shore. The so-called 'Border force' (some force!) picks them up at sea & brings them in, I would do similarly, but take them back to France.  

[Khandro]

back on track, 

"The greater danger, though, lies in Putin’s eventual victory. It will resound across the world — from Minsk to Pyongyang via Tehran and Beijing and all of Putin’s pet African nations, not to mention Caracas — that the West is ineffectual, bordering on utterly impotent. It has no backbone, it will not fight. It may talk a good game but in the end it will do nothing or, as in the case of Ukraine, perhaps worse than nothing. It will rattle not a saber but a fair-trade biodegradable toothpick. It has become addled by wealth and also by liberal overreach.

Will it rouse itself to action if Riga or Tallinn or Helsinki or Taipei are similarly threatened? Try to imagine the scenario, as the shells rain down. The endless discussions. The demands for a “proportionate” response................"

[Untitled]

he speaks of "Putin's commendable detestation of the West" and repeats Putin's propaganda about Western "decadence" which rather suggests he is more of an admirer than he might like to admit. indeed before the present war putin was greatly admired among "anti-woke" types! one wonders if they resent being robbed of their hero...

i doubt that people in the occupied territories really do consider themselves russian... especially now that russia has turned those areas into catastrophic warzones. he does not provide any evidence for his claim that they do.

i do agree that the west will not fight. i don't think that's because of "wokeness" or whatever his nonsense explanation is... i think it's because our populations are old and unhealthy and younger people (myself included) would rather go to prison than get sent into the meat-grinder. is that "not caring"? i don't think so. the west's assets are money and technology not fighting force. using those are far more useful than fighting for the sake of making rod liddle feel tough.

even if russia is capable of winning militarily in ukraine it cannot hold it. the war as it stands has bled the russian army white and has caused absolutely catastrophic losses. it simply cannot afford an occupation even in the worst case scenario that it wins on the battlefield.

[Untitled]

the more i think about it the more i see talk about "fighting" coming from people who know in their hearts that they'll never be called upon to actually do the fighting... it'll be young people and especially young men.  

[ichkeria]

The UK has nothing to be ashamed of in its support for Ukraine. We have welcomed refugees as a people and the government has led in supplying anti tank weapons, tanks, even offered fighter planes which were turned down - and was the first country to send cruise missile closer followed by France.
Money is not the issue: it's political will and Liddell is spot on in that although all the stuff about lots of people "pleasuring themselves" to Putin's picture  is weird and also I am convinced factually wrong.

[Khandro]

^^^ It isn't simply about physically fighting, it's about giving unwavering support in weaponry. The Ukrainians have never asked for foreign troops.

Zelensky echoes what Churchill said to the US in WWII, 'Give us the tools and we'll finish the job", but without that support I'm afraid they are doomed.

 

[naomi24]

I wonder if sooner or later we won't have a choice.

[Untitled]

but what do you mean by "political will"? above you suggest it is the will to send more weapons from the USA but Liddle is quite clear that what he wants is "fighting" - i.e. direct war with russia.

[Khandro]

Ukrainian military officials reported that the Russian strikes targeted critical and civilian infrastructure, and military facilities in Kharkiv, Dnipropetrovsk, Zaporizhia, and Khmelnytskyi oblasts and that Ukrainian forces downed all eight Shaheds and 18 Kh-101/555/55 cruise missiles. Ukrainian Air Force Spokesperson Colonel Yuriy Ihnat reported that the percentage of Russian air targets that Ukrainian forces shot down on the night of January 7 to 8 did not change in comparison to previous, more intense Russian strikes, but that Ukraine needs to intercept more Russian missiles and drones given the large number of such systems that Russia regularly launches.

Institute for the Study of War. 8th Jan.

[ichkeria]

"I wonder if sooner or later we won't have a choice."

Indeed!