Guantanamo suicides

[Zen]

3 people kill themselves after over 4 years in a cage. A great PR stunt or asymetrical warfare say the Septic Tanks ( Yanks ).What do AB ers think /

[Clanad]

Without trying to sound snide or confrontational, noxlumos, I might remind you that German, Italian and Japanese prisoners of war were held by the U.S. and the U.K. druing WW II for, in some cases 6 years. The reverse was also true. They had no rights afforded the citizenry of the countries where they were held and they were not tried, simply held. At the very most, these terrorists have been held for about 3 years.
"Let me quote from a site called Quentin Langley:
The opinions of all sorts of people on Guantanamo Bay are sought and widely publicized. Kofi Annan thinks it should close. British cabinet member, Peter Hain, and Prime Minister, Tony Blair, have endorsed the call. Even the President�s closest friends abroad are not with him on this one..."
Contd.

[Clanad]

Contd.

..."What plainly would be news, however, (my emphasis) is if a representative of some authoritative body, an expert in the field, had actually visited the facilities at Guantanamo and produced a critical report. One thing that all the critics quoted above share is that they have never seen Guantanamo Bay. The UN report was drawn up without the basis of an inspection..." Further..."A story that was newsworthy when there were no facts has become un-newsworthy now that facts are available. A powerful statement, written by Belgium�s top anti-terrorism cop carrying out an official inspection for the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe is surely an important contribution to the debate. Especially as he was accompanied on the inspection by the President of the Belgian Senate"

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[Clanad]

Contd.

How can it possibly be that an expert report from the OSCE on conditions at Guantanamo is not newsworthy? The answer, of course, is that the editors of CNN and the New York Times (and others)had a preconceived script, and this report did not fit it. The respected terrorism expert and the socialist parliamentarian were quite explicit as to their findings. Guantanamo Bay meets European standards. Alain Grignard conceded that the conditions were �far from idyllic� but insisted that they are better than in Belgian prisons".
There are forces at work in our country and around the world that would like nothing better than to see the U.S. fail in this effort. Most of those views are predicated on one simple thing... raging, blind hatred for President George W. Bush... They'd rather see him fail and be embarassed than to assure safety for our country... in my opinion...
Here's a link to the Belgian report: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1591183/posts

[admarlow]

Clanad - Nice one!!!, I thought this thread would go quiet after that.

[noxlumos]

Clanad, I have read this report several times and to be honest there is nothing in it that makes me any happier about the situation at Guantanamo.This man is an anti- terrorism police man so is scarecely independant or subjctive. Where is the report that the Red Cross made to state that conditions within guantanamo were good please, it's that I'd like the link to, not a report by a policeman no-one has ever heard of.And whilst your at it, could you please tell me why the UN may not speak with the detainees if everything there is so great? Seems like an ideal solution, everyone knows and repects the UN, they have a chat to the prisoners and then tell us all is well, or is that too simple? What has the US got to hide there that it is so cagey about who does and who does not have contact with these men and children who are detained without trial or charge? It beggars belief that so many American's with good hearts and minds are backing their Govt in this human rights nightmare. Can you not understand that no-one wants the US policing the world on their terms eroding our social freedoms and feeding the hatred in the middle east by their unacceptable behaviour. You are creating a whole generation of people who hate the west and we'll be very lucky if we can ever undo the harm already done in east west relations because of it.I've googled for a report by the Red Cross saying they are happy and can't find one so can you please supply the link. Thanks.

[cardiacbleed]

@ Ward~minter, you said if you killed a 100 kiddy fiddlers and 2 were innocent of all crimes, you could live with that... you not see the irony in your statment, surely you're saying you can live with being a murderer in support of your beliefs, if the motive is just in your view the lives of a few inncoents are desposable, doesn't that make you a terrorist?

Clanad, i would say personally your interpretation of Americas motives for GTB and the war on terror in general smack of rethoric and opinion rather than facts, which is fair enough. however it is ironic that you should mention NI for americans were amongst the supporters and funders of this conflict, a conflict that has been partially resolved by negotiation. Many years of military intervention proved you will not stop terrorism through military means alone whilst there are those willing to fight, die and fund for what they see as a "just cause"..

In my view the question of "what are these terrorists fighting for?", is more pertinent to understand how to deal with it... cont

[cardiacbleed]

.....i do not hate america, but let me use a devils advocate position to describe her... the only country to have used nuclear weapons, previously and today uses chemical weapons, a country that in the 1950's thought it acceptable to racially segregate its citizens, that trained and supported terrorists and despots such as bin laden and saddam when it suits them, that kills innocents by bombing when it is for the "greater good" but hey when you drop them out of the sky, it doesn't count it's gravity's fault... i could go on, but essentially, just wanted to say perception of what is right and wrong, depends who you believe and which side you are on, i don't believe bin laden or bush, bad as each other if you ask me.. the tactic of hearts and minds is far more effective, successful and moral...shame it requires concession

[noxlumos]

Apparently the thread is anything but quiet Mad-arlow, that won't sit well with you will it?Lol

[admarlow]

ha ha I like it, I might change my name to that, its got panache

[Clanad]

Gee... I thought a terroist act on 9/11, bombing of the USS Cole, first bombing of the World Trade Center, invasion of Kuwait, bombing of U.S. consulates in several foreign countries, ad infinitum, were all caused by Islamic terrorists... sorry for my mistake, they were actually caused by the U.S.! So, noxlumos, you're relying on the same U.N. that used billions and billions of dollars out of the "Oil for Food" program to enrich certain well placed U.N. officials including Kofi Annan's son? The same U.N. whose 'peace keeping troops' raped children in African nations, failed to condemn slavery in the Sudan, took no action in Rwanda massacres in 1994... ad nauseum? The anti-American rhetoric and posturing I mentioned earlier is rampant within the U.N. hierarchy. But, call me sceptical... don't see the U.S. (the largest financial backer of that sorry body) getting a fair shake on Gitmo...
I'm really sorry you don't take the Belgian report seriously... what a surprise!
By the way, Article 17 of the Third Geneva Convention provides that prisoners of war are only required to give their "surname, first names and rank, date of birth, and army regimental, personal or serial number, or failing this, equivalent information," unlawful enemy combatants may be interrogated. And this is precisely what all the clamor is about, not the living conditions...

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[Clanad]

Contd.

Here's an excerpt from a prisoner interview with the ICRC...
"Camp Four, a less restrictive facility in which the detainees have more privileges, was initiated in April 2003 within Camp Delta. In Camp Four, the detainees live communally, wear white rather than orange overalls, and have more exercise time and other benefits. According to the U.S. military, this facility is for those detainees who are considered less of a security risk to guards and other detainees, and who have been cooperative in the interrogation process. It is also the place where some detainees were held preparatory to their release. The fact that there is significant variation in released detainees� accounts of their living conditions at Guantanamo might be explained by the fact that some are describing only their recent experiences of Camp Four.

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[Clanad]

Contd.

For example, one of a group of twenty-three Afghans released in March 2004, Haji Osman, told a New York Times journalist that he was well-treated, allowed to spend up to six hours a day outside his cell, allowed to play sports, and had eaten well enough to put on weight, albeit he had observed that not all prisoners were detained in the same level of comfort.29 Afghan detainee N.H., who spent his last five months at Guantanamo in Camp Four, described some serious problems with his previous conditions, but commented of Camp Four that he had �felt at home and it was easy to live there." (Source: http://hrw.org/backgrounder/usa/gitmo1004/3.htm )
There's no doubt that interrogation techniques have been applied that I'm sure upsets some anit-American factions... After reading this report and others from people who have actually been there, I have no heartburn with the actions...
You're certainly welcome to your beliefs, cardiacbleed (appropriate name..) I'm sure there's a cogent reason behind your equating President Bush to the cold-blooded killing of over 3,000 people on 9/11 as well as all the other atrocities in the name of Islam... my failure to comprehend your reasoning must certainly be a shortcoming on my part...

[cardiacbleed]

*wwwhhhhoooossshhhhh* over the top of mintys head... the point was you are prepared to kill innocents in the pursuit of your ideals, not that the cause is wrong, but its the method i took issue with

[noxlumos]

And the link to the Red Cross report is where please Clannad?Your last post was much of the same if you don't mind me saying so and were you intending to shoot yourself in the foot by posting that link,because if anyone reads the page in it's entirety then that's exactly what will happen?From the same page quote"Two of the detainees interviewed by Human Rights Watch described how initially they were not allowed to pray. One, Mohammad Sangir, claimed that he witnessed Arab detainees being beaten for having prayed (for more on allegations of beatings, see below)."The U.S. continues to hold an unspecified number of older children un-segregated from the population of adults."Detainees also complained about the interference with their ability to pray and the lack of respect given to their religion.The British detainees state that they were never given prayer mats and were not provided Korans.They also complained that when the Korans were provided, the guards �would kick the Koran, throw it into the toilet and generally disrespect it".Is that supposed to prove to me that evrything is ok in that Camp?There are many more serious allegations made on other web sites but I wanted to use only web pages that you provide yourself as clearly you must believe those to be true, or you'd not have posted it.As for the UN, it's not a perfect organisation, but it is precisely what it's name implies,a united council of several nations,not a super power attempting to inflict it's own twisted version of right and justice on the rest of us.I'd like to ask politely again please, can you post the link to the Red Cross report you mentioned earlier.Thanks.

[Clanad]

Finally, it was, I believe, Sun Tzu on the Art of War that stated the self-evident axiom of "know your enemy"... unless and until we in the west can achieve that goal, we're in for a rough time... in my opinion...

[admarlow]

Noxlunos - you are rightly concerned with the validity of sources and so would it not be reasonably that some of the alleged terrorists and war criminals might also tell lies?

[Dom Tuk]

clanad...you perhaps dont need reminding the history of how arms got into Afghanistan, who supported the mujahedeen in afghanistan for decades and how in the end you had to eat humble pie with all the men you had armed. The list of your countries misdemenours is endless and pales into insignificance when compared to what the Islamic terrorists have done. Come on...wheres the Red cross report...or would you like me to show you a link to a report of how your nation is force feeding the detainees.

[Dom Tuk]

Wardy...howabout shooting 100 kiddy fiddlers and if a member of your family or god forbid you were caught in the crossfire as a complete innocent bystander, it would be a sacrifice worth making yeah? tell you what you round them up and i will gladly shoot to prove your point.

[noxlumos]

Not unreasonable at all Mad-arlow, in fact very probable I should think, which is why I don't understand the US's lack of transparency with regards to this "facility". If they let plenty of reputable people in to examine conditions then no-one could possibly have as many issues weith the way in which they conduct themselves. As it is they are secretive and unco-operative to the rest of the world in this regard, so is it not easy to understand why a lot of people feel they are behaving badly and have a lot to hide? Call me old fashioned but I rather like the idea thast if someone has done something wrong then charge them, try them and sentence them. If there isn't enough evidence of their wrongdoing to do that then they should not be detained. I mean it would be like me suggesting we lock up Clannad in case his zeal for dealing with Islamic terrorists gets out of hand and he shoots someone just because he thinks they might be a member of Al-Quaeda. Hardly appropriate is it, so why is it appropriate that the US detains people who have not even been charged with any wrongdoing never mind about found guilty?