Guantanamo suicides

[Zen]

3 people kill themselves after over 4 years in a cage. A great PR stunt or asymetrical warfare say the Septic Tanks ( Yanks ).What do AB ers think /

[Clanad]

At the end of the day, noxlumos, the U.S., and I'm attempting not to sound harsh, couldn't give a rat's behind about imposing it's will and standards on the rest of the world... it is striving to impose democracy and peace in a region that generated horrific conditions on its own people as well as terrorist acts on much of the rest of the world for centuries. If no one else wants to come along, we will see to our own safety. At the same time, we will, undoubtedly, continue to be the leader in contributing money, material and comfort to the areas of the world that need it... exampled by the relief efforts in the Christmas sunami for which we were roundly criticized. I've said from the outset, the treatment of the prisoners may be harsh, but even you would probably admit there have been no televised beheadings, no killing of women who's husbands only suspected them of infidelity, no mass murders of men, women and children, no mass graves uncovered.. I included the excerpts in the report precisely to indicate that the living conditions, as reported by the Belgian investigators, are quite humane and exceeds, by far, the living conditions experienced by the terrorists in their own countries. Surely you know that many of the accusations, such as desecration of the Koran have been proven false...
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[Clanad]

Contd.

Lastly, I can only give you excerpts from the ICRC reports, since they have not released the entire report but only a synopsis to the New York Times. Read here: http://www.ngowatch.org/articles.php?id=206 , especially the paragraph annotated "Torture is Not What the ICRC Says it Is"... very enlightening, in my opinion...

We aren't gonna change each others opinions and I'm sure Zen's mailbox is filling up with notifications...

[Clanad]

Ah... now comes Dom Tuk... that voice of reason and balance. You're absolutely right... the U.S. has been the most imperial power the world has ever known. List for me again, lest I forget, what countries do we occupy? Oh, I forgot the millions of graves, marked and unmarked, filled with American service men and women who served to liberate them... that's certainly an occupation of sorts...

[noxlumos]

"Striving to impose democracy"...brilliant! And I might add exactly what you are doing "imposing".You can't "impose" democracy, if you do it isn't democracy. It's totally laughable that what is clearly now the most corrupt country on the planet who dares to call the International Red Cross in this link you have supplied "unaccountable propaganderists" has the downright bloody nerve given their history of repression and unwanted political and military involvement to continue wading in anywhere.

And you finally admit that you do not have a link to a Red Cross report saying all is well, just a second hand snippet of information taken from an pro American website quote

"The U.N. General Assembly (where the despots and dysfunctionals vastly outnumber the free and self-determining nations)" .

Glad you see us that way, and very pleased I'm not a US citizen, as I'd die of shame for what your country is involved with.

[gessoo]

I have followed this debate with interest over the last few days, whilst working, and haven't had the time to add anything more than I have said already. Noxlumus, I applaud you. Every comment you have made is how so many of us see the whole situation. I too am really glad to live in Europe and could never envisage living in the USA because I would be ashamed of what it has now become, the most selfish and arrogant nation on this earth.

[Clanad]

As I posted originally, ..."they are exceptionally well treated, as verified by the Red Cross..." No where in the the available snippets released to news organizations, not to the U.S. government, by the ICRC are the living conditions criticized. In fact, read again the excerpts from the Belgian authorities, unless all you're interested in is a game of 'gotcha'. I clearly stated, from the beginning of the discourse, that there is plenty of finger pointing concerning the interrogation of the terrorists. But that is a matter of reality in attempting to gain information. Reports from the FBI as well as other world organizations fighting terrorism, indicate the succesful thwarting of attacks. There, by the way, have benn zero, nada, zilch attacks in the U.S. since 9/11. That didn't happen by sitting back and worrying about whether the prisoners breakfast might be a bit to salty...
Since you are so enamored of the U.N., give me a list of their accomplishments... I've already given you a partial list of their abject failures... yet you seem to insist that we place the fate of our country in their incompetent, blood stained hands.
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[Clanad]

Contd.

Lastly, 2,500 young American men and women died as well as some from Poland, Italy and yes, the U.K. imposing the right of the Iraqis to choose democracy... which they did with overwhelming pride indicated by the upheld purple fingers... first time ever, in thousands of years, they actually have a choice. As soon as they can stand on their own two feet, we'll be out of there... just as we did in England, France and the rest of Europe on at least two occasions.... your welcome, by the way...

[Zen]

In fairness, it should be noted that the U.S. government has economically and militarily supported many democratic nations. After World War II, it forged alliances with a good number of them.



But it has also provided military and economic assistance to numerous nations ruled by bloody dictatorships, including Franco's Spain, Chiang Kai-Shek's China, the Shah's Iran, Somoza's Nicaragua, Batista's Cuba, Sukarno's Indonesia, the Saud family's Saudi Arabia, Diem's South Vietnam, Duvalier's Haiti, Marcos's Philippines, the Colonels' Greece, and many other tyrannies. Indeed, the term "Free World" originally included Stalin's Russia. And, not so long ago, the U.S. government had no scruples about providing military assistance to Saddam Hussein's Iraq. Furthermore, on occasion the U.S. government has sought to overthrow democratic governments. Three of its success stories along these lines occurred in Mossadeq's Iran, Arbenz's Guatemala, and Allende's Chile, where democratic governments were succeeded by vicious dictatorships. Based upon this record, observers might well conclude that, for U.S. officials, the defense of democracy has been less important as a motive than as a marketing device.

[cardiacbleed]

i love the way when americans get defensive the old chestnut of "we rescued you in two world wars" and a comment like, you're welcome, as if every american since is owed some great debt forever regardless of age or sacrifice, i agree their was sacrifice, but the US weren't willing comabatants and let this country and europe as a whole down with it's procrastination, even courting hitlar and the nazi party at one stage

i may be doing you a diservice clanad, perhaps you were there in WW2? if so i appologise, if not you are trading on the bravery of others in my opinion

i would point out i have a great deal of respect and admiration for the men and women who serve their country, i come from a military family and my whole issue with americas and my own countries foreign policy is that it is sending our service people into situations that are avoidable and in my view morally wrong... i am not attacking your right to voice an opinion as i hope you will respect mine, however i don't agree with you

[Clanad]

We'll terminate this thread with a history lesson... cardiacbleed, there is a valid reason for referencing WWI and WWII. In both cases, as you have reiterated, the U.S. was a latecomer in terms of troops. However you overlook the rescue of England through the Lend-Lease Act, wherein tons and tons of war materials were literally given to England and other European countries. England was literally broke in 1939-40 and couldn't pay for another rifle bullet when Roosevelt and his administration, struggling to overcome the isolationists who remembered Europe's carnage in WWI, forced through the Act. The cost in todays dollars would have been in the trillions.
Is there not a dicotomy at work here? On one had the U.S. is criticized for being late to the party in WWI and WWII, but were accused of jumping the gun and acting like cowboys in being in the lead confronting terrorists in this conflict. Unique concept.

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[Clanad]

Well, that brings us to Zen... There's no denying the intrigue you mention. However, for most of the time period encompassing the actions of which you speak... seems I remember a large, hungry and menacing Bear on the eastern horizon... or maybe ya'll are to young to remember Premier Nikita Kruschev pounding the podium with his shoe speaking to the U.N., shouting "We will bury you"... The only thing that stood between all of Europe (including that "fair green isle") were the points of ICBM's in silos in Kansas, South Dakota and Nebraska. The standoff, known as the Cold War, saw much meddling by both sides, no doubt. But once again, national survival was at stake. It didn't end until the election of President Ronaldus Magnus... possibly the finest President the U.S. has produced in modern times. It was his bold confrontation that spelled the end of the U.S.S.R. So, here we are today, more hated than admired, but still leading since there is no one else...Is there?

[maxximus]

clanad i have read all of the posts and the topics you all have touched on have spidered into an overwhelming variety of directions beyond my immediate scope, but when all is said and done i must take my hat of to noxlumos. meaning no disrespect, i assure you. you could be the poster child for cnn or fox news. you have pretty much covered the party line for the past half century.my brother in law is from sacramento and he is the same, something that was indoctrinated into him since elementary, standing hand on heart five times a day staring at a flag being told he was living in the greatest nation in the world , the home of the brave.and doesn't understand why his father (a decorated d.e.a. agent) moved his whole family out of there thirty years ago. unfortunately for him (according to his dad) he didn't do it soon enough.again i mean no disrespect, just an observation, i get along great with my brother in law.

[maxximus]

i am assuming this is same ronaldus magnus who's friend james baker with the promise of tow missiles got the iranians to hold the hostages until after the election so as to humiliate jimmy carter and con the public into electing him in the first place. the same ronaldus that armed the contras to the teeth to wipe out the santonistas(the people) (with russian weapons bought from the mujahadeen in afghanistan to make it look like the russians where involved) with profits from the sale of cocaine bought from manuel noriega (another courtcase i don't recall seeing or hearing much about?) you will find the mass graves you where talking about earlier all over central america and columbia but they don't like to talk about that in washington either. cont.

[maxximus]

it was the u.s. that expedited matters in getting all russia's bordering countries favored nations status and accepted into nato overnight, something unheard of, while other countries have to be on what can only be called a waiting list. thereby completely surrounding russia and stealing one of the largest deposits of oil on the planet namely the caspian sea basin. by putting their own puppet despots and with their defence contracters, proceeded to build military bases in every country with a stan at the end (tajikistan, uzbekistan, pakistan, you get the picture). the only opening russia has is chechneya. bring in the muslims from the u.s. funded wahabist schools, the same ones that where used in kosovo, and then the buzz word terrorist started being bandied about, as the romans used the word barbarian. this all took place years before 911. the first gulf war was simply to put iraq out of the oil business, but leave saddam in charge, because they weren't ready to deal with what is happening now then. but they wanted the oil to be there now. under the guise of the war on terrorism they will continue this charade until they drain the whole place. with fearmongering, lies and deception they will take our rights and liberties under the guise of the war on terrorism the same as the war on drugs in south america and the war on communism. the terrorists they themselves have created. with the help to a large part from the crimanals they installed in pakistan years ago. my point being this did not just happen it,s been carefully planned for years. cont.

[maxximus]

i don't expect you to by into any of this clanad, nor should you, and i assure you i respect your oppinion and in no way am i trying to insult your intelligence. you made a few other points i would disagree with but as i am just learning to type this is rather brutal. it would appear you and my brother in law are peas in a pod. and trust me, i have been to the states many times and have always been treated just as well as i do here, it would seem your mister bush and his cronies are as unpopular in their own country as they are in the rest of the world. this of course is refreshing.

[Dom Tuk]

Ah that brings us to clanad....our across the pond evangelist who reckons that the more the words he can type the better he has argued his point. To quote...'the US...couldnt give a rats behind about imposing its will and standards on the rest of the world'. Say no more clanad you have exposed yourself pitifully.

[admarlow]

Everyone keeps saying that the more we fight the east, the stronger they will fight back, i.e. more terrorism, well what sparked 9/11, as we were not at war then??

[cardiacbleed]

really good post maxximus

clanad i was unaware of the lend lease act thanks for the heads up, although i like to do research and from this it appears that a number of issues cropped up, the lend lease act was an exchange of weapons for money, the act itself was only passed through congress by ONE vote and a fact i wasn't clear on previously, it was hitler that declared war on the USA a few days after pearl harbour and not the USA joining the war to aid us but their hand was forced, unless my internet research is inaccurate (always a possibility) that we have both learnt something?

i fail to see how you can somehow link the acts of todays foreign policy with FDR's time if anything they are two shinning examples of mishandling and botching international affairs not an opportunity to say, damned if you do, damned if you don't

[Oneeyedvic]

CLANAD - "it is striving to impose democracy and peace in a region that generated horrific conditions on its own people"
AND "imposing the right of the Iraqis to choose democracy... which they did with overwhelming pride indicated by the upheld purple fingers... first time ever, in thousands of years, "

So, on the basis that America loves Democracy, how is there tratement of Palestine?

Or is it - yes you can have democacy but only if you democratically elect someone we like!

[gessoo]

I admire all your postings so much. noxlumus, maxximus, zen , cardiacbleed, dom and others. Your points are all put so well and are so understandable. I wish I had your skills. This thread has been such a good and thought provoking read.

Clanad, I am not discrediting you in any way. I respect you have your views as well, but I have to agree with the majority here. You do seem somewhat blinkered though!

Thanks for posting this Zen.