Reasonable Use of Force

[flip_flop]

If Patrick Walsh has pushed the burglar from his window ledge, should he be punished, or has he used reasonable force?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml =/news/2007/08/10/nintruder110.xml

Personally, I feel that anybody entering a property without the owners permission with the intent to commit a crime, forfeits any rights they might otherwise have.

The burglar has died. Well boo hoo. Oh dear. Never mind.

[Marvelman]

ruby you say that all they took were replacable posssesssions, you had to work and pay for them, so you dont mind if a couple of low lifes walk into your house and take them because you can work a bit more and replace them, heaven forbid if one of the poor dears hurts his back lifting your telly up to steal it, he would sue you for not telling him how heavy it was, these low lifes are scum and should forfeit any rights if the housholder kills them protecting his family.

[flip_flop]

It never ceases to amaze me how the rubys of the world appear to feel that burglary, which is a heinous crime, should be treated as a low level misdemeaner - it is typical ridiculous liberal thinking, wanting to treat the crime 'holisitically' and to understand why they are committing these crimes and to feel empathy for them, and heaven forbid they should be banged up because "what good would that do".

They spout utter cobblers, they really do.

The simple undeniable fact of the matter in this particular instance is that had this burglar not been robbing this man, he would not be dead.

I for one am glad he is dead. Yes, glad.

It would be an utter travesty if Walsh received any punishment - he should be hailed as a hero, like Tony Martin should.

[NJOK]

flip_flop, the difference of opinion comes down to this.

Is murder worse than burglary? I reckon it is. And - in my opinion - it's not being soft to think that having someone breaking in to my house isn't enough to justify terminating them.

It's not about rights, or being a leftie or being holistic. It's simply thinking that breaking into my house isn't so bad that it deserves a death sentence.

No one is saying that burglars aren't scum. Just that murder is far too high a price to pay for it. After all, let's not forget that murderers are the most hated people in society. They're the sort of people that probably get ABers banging on the side of police vans. But I think we all agree that ending a life is a bit worse than stealing a pension book - even if you get fewer brownie points for railing against it.

[jno]

if burglary is punishable by instant death, burglars will go armed. What have they got to lose by killing their victims? There is a reason why crimes and punishments are graded.

[chompu]

I'm not advocating death to all burglars but have no sympathy for this one who has died, if he wasn't carrying out this illegal act he would still be alive.
I agree with you regarding Rubys' post, Flip Flop. Yes, they might be material possessions that can be replaced but if I have paid out my hard earned money for such I be pretty angry if someone just helped themselves.
Ruby, if you don't feel your wellbeing was threatened then you are being extremely naive. I have arrested many burglars in houses and other premises and as an old bobby said to me on the first occasion ' if the andrenalines not flowing and you're not feeling a bit scared then I don't want you around because you'll be a liability' It's called self preservation. Regards the old lady facing an andenaline fuelled young man, the court would take into account their physical differences. They would probably consider the use of a weapon, maybe even a shotgun as reasonable force.

[ruby27]

flip-flop, sorry thought you had asked a question where you were inviting answers on whether PW should be punished or had he used reasonable force. I hadn't realised this was an audience with flip-flop where we were allowed to post answers that agreed only.

[flip_flop]

As AB's self-appointed social conscience and arbiter of what is right and wrong, I always welcome, and enjoy reading, your posts Ruby, despite the fact I feel they are misguided and borderline naive.

You can put as many 'socio-politico-economic-demograph-ism-ists' that you like, and accuse all and sundry who don't agree with you as being either racist, mysogynist, sexist or any other ism or ist that is fasionable this week, but nevertheless, I do enjoy the right-on babble in your posts.

Were you or are you a mature student perchance?

[flip_flop]

Burglary isn't punishable be death (it generally isn't punishable at all - but that is probably a subject for another thread) and killing a burglar to protect yourself is not murder.

The former may possibly, although extremely rarely, be a by-product of the act of burglary (so rare in fact it made the news) and the latter cannot possibly be murder - murder implies malice aforethought, whereas IF Walsh did push the burglar he did so to get him out of his property in order to protect himself.