Listener 4113 Liberty Bell by Pieman

[cluelessJoe]

Phew, that was a tough one

[contendo]

I have 26 unchecked letters of which only 6 become checked on deleting new bars. Hard to make a four-word quotation out of 6 letters. Have I misunderstood the preamble?

[dr b]

contendo, there are more than 6. I relied heavily on Chambers Word Wizard at this step, since there were several cases where I thought, I could erase that bar, but it wouldn't leave a word, would it? Only to discover that it indeed would.

[Rogue-Elfe]

I'm proud of myself that I have done this with only minimal assistance from the board: I also had problems with 35d. My advise to anyone else stuck here is to leave it until the very end. Slightly bothered that, after the changes, one answer is neither a real word nor a name despite assurances from the preamble. (I think it's an abbreviation). Given that this is a Pieman crossword, I am surprised at this lapse. His rubrics (pun intended) are usually flawless. However, given that this is a Pieman, I'm doubly glad to have even been able to solve it in the first place!

[Rogue-Elfe]

ps. Thanks, Contendo, for your reply to my comment on 4111. Looking back, I think that my entry might have been seen to be a little sarcastic, which wasn't the intention, as I was genuinely confused. Three question marks at the end of a sentence isn't gramatically correct in any case. Out of interest, I always use both versions of the 'BRB' for any Listener. Absolutely invaluable! Once again, thanks for not taking any offence and answering the queries.

[Ruthrobin]

Rogue-Elfe,
Are you bearing in mind the word 'maximise'. Obviously, that means 'make the average length of words longer.

[AndrewG-S]

Althought this was overall high class and I thoroughly enjoyed it I do have a few quibbles. I don't think the grid needs are bar between 23d and 44d. I think 40d can become maximised but isn't. And there are a fair number of clues where I have not yet got the wordplay, I might usually be left with one or two but here I have 2a, 11a, 19a, 17a, 46a, 56a, 9d, 10d, 62a, 59d and probably more - my sense remains that some of the cluing was overly obscure. I think this is probably driven by the number of clues necessitating very short clues in order to meet the wordcount criterion.

[Scorpius]

Not impressed by the opening sentence of the preamble, which was not punctuated for clarity.
The clues were fairly easy on the whole for Pieman, though there are a few I don't fully understand and 35 down has defeated me so far. I'm wondering why the editors have allowed a four-letter word with 2 unchecked letters, normally strictly forbidden. On top of that it could be an anagrammed answer.

AndrewG-S, re your query on 9d, I think the definition is in the next (linked) clue.

[cluelessJoe]

I was just about to post a query about the bar above 44D - wondered if I was overlooking something. I see AndrewG-S has just mentioned the same, so I assume that Pieman or the editors missed something (an opportunity for another 12 letter word)!
I am happy with all the wordplay apart from 4A which I just abandoned. A nice and very testing puzzle. Thank you P

[AndrewG-S]

35d was the last I got too. trux has given some hints above for this and the clue is relatively obvious (when you get it of course). I did not manage to work it out until after I had got all the thematics.

[bobbycollins]

I too am happy with all of the wordplays, apart from 35d. The unchecked letters have defeated me as well. Sorry to say that I am not sure I can be bothered going any further (third week in a row)

[contendo]

35d is straightforward if you bear in mind what is said in the preamble, though the definition in the clue defines a slightly more limited entity than the answer.
I'm still wrestling with the four-word quotation. Despite Dr B's assurances I can only increase the number of liberated checked letters to 10, and that includes some 2-letter words. Is the quotation in the ODQ?

[contendo]

I meant liberated unchecked letters.

[perseverer]

contendo - find one more

[AndrewG-S]

The quotation is well known. I doubt you will need ODQ when you get it. Take a look at the two letter words and try to extend.

[aldanna]

I had the grid half full on Saturday (OK, very nearly half full) before I decided I wasn't enjoying it enough to spend the time it would appear to need, so I gave up. Last week I gave up temporarily, but changed my mind after encouragement from bobbycollins and midozalam, and really enjoyed it in the end. Not this week.

[JackDeCrow]

Yep, it's been a hard graft this one - particularly without access to the online dictionary (I didn't have the real thing but have ordered it now!). Have struggled through to a nearly full grid, a couple of unexplained answers, a gap at 35d, but have just found the quotation. It does bring a refrain to mind, but haven't yet taken enough liberties clearly!

[silversolver]

Re: 35d - I was also stuck on this at the end of the grid fill but found that using Chambers WordWizard to identify all possible answers and anagrams thereof eventually yielded the right answer...a bit long-winded perhaps but it worked for me!

[JackDeCrow]

Have adopted much the same approach, silversolver, but until my shiny new BRB gets here I can't confirm that the word I have in mind matches the definition! I doesn't seem to on any on-line dictionary I can currently access, but I believe there is a link.

[trux]

cJ (if I may be so informal) : agree that 23D/44D could have been maximised, as well as 40D (but this would be re-modified afterwards presumably in making the refrain) ; as for 4A, definition is obscure (to say the least) but wordplay is fine (the character is Greek). So, some quibbles - but, on balance, probably only nit-picking what was otherwise an excellent construction, with original elements, and a degree of masochism required to untangle the clues - which, IMHO, is what Listeners should be all about - perhaps we have had it too easy of late ?

[Scorpius]

I also adopted silversolver's approach to get 35dn, then wondered why I'd had so much trouble with it, though the definition was a little loose.

I note that entering the checked letters of 35dn into Chambers Word Wizard yields 38 possibilities, whereas doing the same in Chambers 2003 CD Rom gets several more, which is rather odd since presumably the Word Wizard is based on the later edition of Chambers.

I've yet to see the emergence of a borrowed refrain.

Incidentally, I don't see how 40dn can be maximised. It's the wrong part of speeach to use the letter below it.