Listener Crossword 4082

[Zabadak]

This is a terrific technical challenge, with some fine and fair cluing. It made my head spin towards the end, and I suspect transcription into the final grid is going to be particularly prone to errors. Anyone got any suggestions for foolproof cross-checking?

[Mamyalynne]

No but I will watch this space avidly

[midazolam]

Agree Zabadak. Once it dawned on me that this was not all about cold solving, the grid filling was not overly complicated. The pangrams however took their time as the extra words are not always directly linked in Chambers.

Wonderful grid construction to combine across with down and linked to 2 sets of pangrams. Transcription / decoding errors might be rife on this one.

thanks sabre

[Zabadak]

Hi midazolam: - too right on transcription errors. I checked my "final" copy and found two this morning. Spreadsheet to the rescue, checking the final entry backwards to the clue entry. Even then, my brain hurts!

My congrats to Sabre on finding at least one entirely original (as far as I can see) pangram set.

[daagg]

Ha - just finished. As Midaz says, the grid fill is quite straightforward once you realise a useful property of the encoding. However, the pangrams were fairly stubborn until I found a key alternative definition of one of the words. I'm very impressed that Sabre has managed to make this work.

[Ruthrobin]

Yes, what an impressive construction. I agree with Daagg about that key alternative that gave the game away. Tremendously enjoyable, I thought and, indeed, transcribing this one correctly is going to be the greatest challenge of all!

[AHearer]

Beautiful construction: as has been said above, not as hard as it appeared at first sight. It was the 5-letter word that I got first in the pangram, rapidly followed by two of the three-letter ones -- then it was pretty well done. Except, that is, that I've still got two clues left to solve!

[Mysterons]

Interestingly, Chambers defines 'pangram' as any sentence containing all the letters of the alphabet, citing as an example the one I recall from my youth - "The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog". This puzzle however is dealing with 'perfect pangrams'.

[dr b]

I found this a rather joyless slog (although "terrific technical challenge" makes a much better euphemism). I guess what I like about the Listener (& EV, & Spec.), is the stumbling about in the dark for a while before the PDM. When the instructions drop the penny for you, all you've got is a hard puzzle. I think I whined about this a few weeks ago, so at least I am a consistent curmudgeon.

And of course, I'm amazed as always at the skill involved in the construction of the puzzle.

Well, off to enjoy the weather and replace some perennials that failed to live up to their name!

[cluelessJoe]

Great puzzle, typos here we come!

[Ferrabosco]

I'm puzzled... Since both pangrams begin and end with a four letter word how can the encoding be unique? By simply swopping the end words in the across pangram and then the down pangram don't we obtain a different, but related, encoding?

[Zabadak]

For Ferrabosco: Er... no, though you might like to try. Certainly the solution I've got is consistent and works. I think this is one of those where, with the level of coding we've got, eventually your brain goes round in smaller and smaller circles and kind of implodes - I've had to do this in bits to make sure I'm still thinking straight. I think if you try to swap the ends, it falls apart, but I'm not sure I know why!

[thebuzz999]

It definitely falls apart. For example, suppose the answers to both 1across and 1down start with A. That would mean that the first words of each pangram have to have the same first letter (that letter would be the encoding for A throughout the grid whether across or down.) It would also mean that whenever an across answer has an A, the crossing down answer would have an A. If you swap the first and last pangram words, then across A's no longer would check down A's (instead across W's would check down W's sice the words are 4 letters).

[cluelessJoe]

dr b ... off (main) topic, but on the one you just introduced, I can sympathise on the perennials front - not just those labelled perennials, but those pretentiously styling themselves as 'hardy p's' have tended to succomb this winter. I realise that today's weather is not always what it used to be, but must wonder how (and what kind of) plants survived back in the good old days when the likes of this past winter seemed to be the norm. Any recommendations for true hardy stock most welcome - particularly the likes of diascia. Hard to tell as everything is about 3 weeks behind, but we must have lost 25% of stuff which normally coasts through.
Sorry everyone, I think I spent too long in the jungle with hot sun on the back of my head today ... what I meant to say was 'nice one Sabre'

[dr b]

Joe, I'm the US Midwest, so we probably do not have too much in common weather-wise!

[kwyjibo]

Excellent puzzle. Did it in one (long) sitting and using the big red book only. Was struggling to justify 20d but have it now. Best of the year so far?

[cluelessJoe]

Probably kwyjibo - and best clued answer of the year to date at 15 across?

[midazolam]

thebuzz99 - I was with you until you wrote about swapping first and last. You dont need to swap anything only encode the across and down letters (whether they are the same or not) to the pangram words you have deduced, thereby creating a unique grid.

"A" would only encode to "W" if "W" was the first letter of the pangrams. I assure you if doesn't fall apart.

[Mysterons]

Ferrabosco makes a fair point - there isn't anything in the preamble to fix the order of the pangram words. For example, if the first word was MNBV, and the last word CXZL in the 6-word pangram, then the first and last words in the other set would be RVBZ and CFNP, and the first letter of the first entry would be A - however solvers who placed the first and last words the other way round would code the first letter as W. Perhaps there should be a message in the completed grid to confirm that the correct choice has been made ?

[kwyjibo]

When you've completed the puzzle there can be no doubt about the correct order of words in the pangrams.
Getting back to the original question, if you want to ensure no errors I'd suggest using two grids, like last week, then when you've encoded them they should be the same.

[Mysterons]

........ and double check those unches !!