Can We Trust Expert Scientists?

[Theland]

Most notably on climate change, but on many other subjects as well such as vaccinations, diet, and a myriad of other things, can we trust scientists?
How do we mame decisions?

My personal interests are origin of the universe, origin of life, and evolution.

What do you think?

[teacake44]

I'm no food expert, but I don't see I have to be, to understand there's only to things that can be wrong with food, not enough, or too much. Not enough = un-healthy, too much = unhealthy. :0)

[pastafreak]

If only it was that simple ;)

[Old_Geezer]

You can trust the overall opinion of scientists as a group as it means any bias gets cancelled out. It doesn't guarantee they're right, but it does indicate the most likely state if things given present knowledge and understanding. Peer reviews, and testability ensures it's a better bet than a guess or a desired result from no evidence.

[jakep]

I totally trust science. Scientists are human and I would think some errors are occasionally made.
One point you raised, climate change. I believe that anyone in denial over this needs their bumps felt!
I have no trust whatsoever in the biggest lie ever told....religion.

[AuntPollyGrey]

I don't 'trust' scientists as they consistently change their minds, which I suppose is inevitable as they discover new things. In the 80's fat was your foe -you had to eat lots of carbs and go jogging to stay healthy -now ,apparently, Fat is your friend, Keto is king and hey guys, you can do Keto without any exercise.
They use facts made up by themselves, such as having 5 a day -they just pulled that one out of the hat, BMI which is so stupid that half if not all the GB Olympic teams were classed as obese. The hugest fib of all -that childhood vaccinations are 100% safe - they have no idea if they are and all I can say is that when I was a child the only vaccines available were for Polio and 'Autism' did not exist -or hardly did anyway. My mother was given a 'safe' drug by her GP to prevent Morning Sickness. Thankfully my father tossed them down the toilet before she could take any -that drug was thalidomide...….

[Ryzen]

Where are Mr Browns scientists who told motorists that diesel cars were the future?

[AuntPollyGrey]

Ryzen -back of the net as some would say ;-)

[naomi24]

APG, I too have my doubts about the assurances that vaccines are safe. I would like science to investigate the incidence of autism in children who haven’t been given the MMR vaccine. I don’t see any reports of that nature.

[jim360]

There is a world of difference between autism not existing, and autism not being recognised for what it was.

[jim360]

// I would like science to investigate the incidence of autism in children who haven’t been given the MMR vaccine. I don’t see any reports of that nature.//

You haven't been looking, then. A huge study in Japan, where MMR was banned in the mid-1990s, showed that, if anything, autism rates rose when MMR disappeared from the system as compared with when it was administered.

https://archive.today/20100920074510/http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118735419/abstract

[jim360]

See also https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6458016/ , with an effective sample size of about 15 million children. Again, there was no evidence whatsoever for a link between autism and MMR.

Exactly how many such studies have to be published before you "see" them?

[naomi24]

I haven’t seen the study I’d like to see - one from a country where the vaccine has never been used.

[jim360]

Why doesn't Japan do, which has banned MMR since the mid 1990s and as far as I can see continues to withhold it? That represents 25 years' worth of children to have been born without government-sanctioned access to MMR. As I mentioned, studies there have shown that if anything autism rates have increased since the withdrawal of MMR.

If that isn't enough evidence to satisfy you then nothing is. But then it's no longer about trusting scientists, or not, so much as a refusal to accept the long-established answer to a question that was only posed in the first place for the most unethical reasons.

[naomi24]

Why was it banned and if it’s deemed entirely safe why has the ban been upheld for so long? (I can’t read your link properly - I’m using a phone to post so it’s too small - that’s if the answers to my questions are there).

[jim360]

There were several MMR scares in the mid 1990s. One of them was enough to make the Japanese government at the time decide to withdraw the vaccine presumably due to public pressure. As to why it's never been introduced, I don't know, but perhaps the public pressure is still there. I think the government itself maintains that there's no link between the two but that's not been enough to see it reintroduced.

I suspect it's indirectly related to the same reason why South Koreans take seriously the utterly unsubstantiated claim that electric fans can cause asphyxiation or other fatal conditions if left on in a closed room. Once an idea has taken hold it can be very hard to shift.

[Peter Pedant]

I agree that ni ( the divine ni - hi ni!) blaarts and doesnt look

there is meant to be a large FInnish study following up vaccinated and unvaccinated children
which may be this
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2908388/
or this
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21082229
or this
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2923050/

I quite like the idea of - I dont see therefore it doesnt exist
VERY answerbank....

the latest dead baby scandal in Gravesend - everyone is finger pointing at the doctors
but when Dr Wakeford causes deaths from measles in unvaccinated children in Manchester deep thinkers like Nigh sigh - well he has a point you know !

[jno]

no, no, I only trust what I read on social media.

[jourdain2]

No, I don't really trust them. They can only work from the latest research (which they go overboard about and predicate from as if it is irrefutable). Then they find out something else and the first lot is obsolete and discarded. Prof. Fred Hoyle was an O.B. of my grammar school and a highly respected and influential scientist of his time. He bought a place high up in the Lake District and
stocked it up against a siege -because he expected another ice-age any time, given the scientific evidence.

That's just one example; so I take it all with a large pinch of salt. Great when something concrete is discovered - like a definite cure for something which is proved to work. I also have a few doubts regarding giving 3 lots of vaccine to immature systems all at once. Much better to give separate ones, spaced out by a month or 2, i.m.o..

[naomi24]

Jim, //There were several MMR scares in the mid 1990s. One of them was enough to make the Japanese government at the time decide to withdraw the vaccine presumably due to public pressure.//

Very clearly you have no idea why the Japanese government withdrew the vaccine, Allow me to enlighten you. The Japanese government withdrew the vaccine because several conditions - including cases of autism and meningitis - were attributed to it and parents sued - successfully. You have deliberated on three separate branches of science today, not one of them your area - and yet you have no hesitation in telling anyone who disagrees with you they’re wrong. Do please allow others to have an opinion. For all you know they may well be right.

[jim360]

Jourdain's claim that three vaccines at once may be less safe than three separate ones is utterly baseless, and yet I notice you haven't picked up on that at all?

This is not a matter of my expertise, or lack of it. I have referred you instead to several in-depth and rigorous studies, all of which wholly refute the points you are trying to make. It is the studies, not me, to whom you should be paying attention.