Can We Trust Expert Scientists?

[Theland]

Most notably on climate change, but on many other subjects as well such as vaccinations, diet, and a myriad of other things, can we trust scientists?
How do we mame decisions?

My personal interests are origin of the universe, origin of life, and evolution.

What do you think?

[AuntPollyGrey]

Emmie you can be vaccinated at any time of your life! Not vaccinating small babies -and I'm talking weeks old -will not put them in peril for the rest of their lives, what nonsense! My children were not given the MMR. They were given the polio vac at around 1 year old if I recall, then my sons had the mumps vac when they had a polio booster at around 11 as they had not had mumps naturally. As teenagers they had the meningitis one when available and of course the very important Tetanus. Giving small babies vaccinations when the risk of them actually getting the diseases they are being vaccinated for is extremely low was not a risk I was prepared to take -oh and they are all very healthy adults now.

[woofgang]

I do think that the UK government of the time dealt with the MMR issue very badly though. My great niece was a baby at the time and while I had no part in the decision her parents took (they purchased separate vaccines privately) I did follow the issue quite closely. There was definitely an attitude of headpatting and advice to parents not to worry their little noddles about the hard sciency stuff in the official line and this was made worse by Tony Blair's refusal to say whether or not his own children had received the triple vaccine.

[jim360]

The problem with that is that the more parents there are who make the decision not to take the risk, the higher the risk becomes of catching the disease in the first place. This is the well-established concept of "herd immunity" -- if a certain percentage of people are vaccinated then it's sufficient to protect the ones who are not, but drop too far below that percentage and then the disease can spread after all.

The UK was declared "rid" of Measles in 2017, and then lost that status barely a year later. It has to be said that this probably owes more to the second booster jab than the first, but still: parents choosing not to take a non-existent risk has had an observable impact on the actual risk of measles spreading, in the UK and elsewhere.

[woofgang]

APG there is a concept called herd immunity? Being vaccinated not only protects the individual but limits their ability to pass the infection on, this protecting those individuals who need to delay vaccination or shouldn't have it at all. Herd immunity is what keeps the risk of infection low but for it to work, it does require that a high proportion of healthy individuals should be vaccinated.

[woofgang]

snap jim

[Mamyalynne]

Can we trust everyone all the time - no.

However the Scientists make more sense generally than the Anti Vaxxers whose message invades schools and does potential untold damage to future generations if they are heeded.

Interesting article on the rise of Autism rates here from the USA.

I speak from a purely non scientific background and the Grandmother to four on the spectrum.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/the-intuitive-parent/201805/the-ongoing-rise-in-autism-what-in-the-world-is-going

[TheDevil]

"Can we trust everyone all the time"

It depends if they're an expert in their field opposed to, you know, someone who isn't.

[TheDevil]

From Mamylynnes link

"For example, the popularized view that MMR vaccines cause autism is no longer a tenable "cause" and the article originally presenting the “vaccines cause autism” discovery by Andrew Wakefield was withdrawn under scandalous circumstances"

[Old_Geezer]

Whilst new evidence can change the advice given, one has to be careful about judging what the advice science is giving, is, when the situation is that different factions are interpreting things differently. The diet advice overall has always to eat a balanced diet. Issues re fat or carbs have separate advocates. But "everything" in moderation still applies. And no worrying or else :-)

[naomi24]

Jim, //The problem with that is that the more parents there are who make the decision not to take the risk, the higher the risk becomes of catching the disease in the first place. //

No one is suggesting that children should not be vaccinated.

[jim360]

As I have said, though, replacing MMR with M, M and R separately tends to reduce overall uptake. Advocating a switch to the three single jabs therefore amounts in practice to a reduction in the numbers of vaccinated children. The reason for this is obvious: children don't like having a needle stuck in them, and parents don't particularly enjoy watching their children suffer. Why make the children go through three times as many jabs as necessary, then, when one will do?

There is a huge body of evidence in favour of the safety and efficacy of the triple jab. It is not the responsibility of any government to ignore that evidence in favour of pandering to the paranoia of the public.

[TheDevil]

"Why make the children go through three times as many jabs as necessary, then, when one will do?"

Also, think of the cost and time effectiveness on an already burdened NHS.

[TheDevil]

Also, one needle compared to 3 needles, less chance of infection or time wasted finding a vain.

It makes much more sense in almost every aspect to have a 3 in one jab opposed to three separate jabs.

[retrocop]

//less chance of infection or time wasted finding a vain.//

I don't think veins come into the equation. I believe all the jabs are in the tissue not intra venus.

[naomi24]

// It is not the responsibility of any government to ignore that evidence in favour of pandering to the paranoia of the public. //

People who believe their children have been affected by the triple vaccine aren't paranoid, Jim. They're living with the result - and so are their children. There is no good reason that these jabs cannot be given separately. It happened before MRR was introduced.

[TheDevil]

You're right RetroCop, apparently it is critical that the jab is in the muscle not the vain.

[TheDevil]

"They're living with the result "

What is the result?

[jim360]

What result indeed. They had a jab, their children have autism. There is no causal link between the two.

[naomi24]

You don't know their children, Jim. They do.

[TheDevil]

Do they? Or is their knowledge absolutely destroyed by sheer emotion and wanting to blame someone or something other than sheer chance?