News10 mins ago
What Do The Faithful Have That The Rest Of Us Don’T?
375 Answers
With no explanation, Goodlife is constantly telling the ‘poor’ atheists here that they have nothing – and today Khandro said exactly the same. I'm curious. Just what is it that these chaps think they have that the rest of us lack?
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Exercising their free will to sacrifice that free will, perhaps? Ha!
Grasscarp: firstly, it depends on the atheists in question. I don't think that answerbank is necessarily representative: the majority of atheists probably keep their mouths shut, or at least only talk about it when prompted by friends or theists who bring the topic up in the first place. On the other side of the coin, how many people out on the street (a) preach and proselytise about their (usually Christian) faith in loud tones, condemning passers-by as sinners or at least speaking loudly, and (b) how many of these street-preachers have you heard talking about "there is no god, and actually I don't have much more than that to say really"? Perhaps the street preachers aren't representative of the religious either. On the other hand, Matthew 28:18 suggests that it's the job of Christians to talk about their faith to the wider community. In which case, you shouldn't be too surprised when atheists feel obliged to respond -- and perhaps even to start the conversation themselves.
Not only that, but at least some of us would like to discuss the topic because we might want to understand what motivates people to have a belief, or to ignore/ overlook/ reject arguments that persuaded us to adopt a position of non-belief (or disbelief).
Speaking now for myself here, I've also spent most of my time as an atheist wondering what it means for my theistic (most Christian) friends. At best it means that on this topic at least I disagree with them. At worst, given the apparent ease with which most arguments in favour of religious faith can be rejected, that presumably implies that they are irrational or worse. I'm still not entirely comfortable with that, and so I'm probably spending more time than I would otherwise in the R&S board in part because I'm still secretly hoping that I might be wrong after all. So it would be nice to hear what theists have to say in answer to questions.
Unfortunately, most theists on AB seem to fall into two camps: the smaller those who don't engage in a meaningful debate because they've already made up their mind and dismiss out-of-hand both the points atheists make and the people who make them. The other camp seems to be filled with people who don't really want to talk about it, and pointedly say so, and ask us to stop talking about it. (There's also presumably a third group, those people who are religious but never even mention it or engage in the debate whatsoever.)
At any rate, it would be nice if theists started to spend less time complaining about having more time to talk about why they believe and more time actually talking about it, and responding to arguments and counter-arguments.
Grasscarp: firstly, it depends on the atheists in question. I don't think that answerbank is necessarily representative: the majority of atheists probably keep their mouths shut, or at least only talk about it when prompted by friends or theists who bring the topic up in the first place. On the other side of the coin, how many people out on the street (a) preach and proselytise about their (usually Christian) faith in loud tones, condemning passers-by as sinners or at least speaking loudly, and (b) how many of these street-preachers have you heard talking about "there is no god, and actually I don't have much more than that to say really"? Perhaps the street preachers aren't representative of the religious either. On the other hand, Matthew 28:18 suggests that it's the job of Christians to talk about their faith to the wider community. In which case, you shouldn't be too surprised when atheists feel obliged to respond -- and perhaps even to start the conversation themselves.
Not only that, but at least some of us would like to discuss the topic because we might want to understand what motivates people to have a belief, or to ignore/ overlook/ reject arguments that persuaded us to adopt a position of non-belief (or disbelief).
Speaking now for myself here, I've also spent most of my time as an atheist wondering what it means for my theistic (most Christian) friends. At best it means that on this topic at least I disagree with them. At worst, given the apparent ease with which most arguments in favour of religious faith can be rejected, that presumably implies that they are irrational or worse. I'm still not entirely comfortable with that, and so I'm probably spending more time than I would otherwise in the R&S board in part because I'm still secretly hoping that I might be wrong after all. So it would be nice to hear what theists have to say in answer to questions.
Unfortunately, most theists on AB seem to fall into two camps: the smaller those who don't engage in a meaningful debate because they've already made up their mind and dismiss out-of-hand both the points atheists make and the people who make them. The other camp seems to be filled with people who don't really want to talk about it, and pointedly say so, and ask us to stop talking about it. (There's also presumably a third group, those people who are religious but never even mention it or engage in the debate whatsoever.)
At any rate, it would be nice if theists started to spend less time complaining about having more time to talk about why they believe and more time actually talking about it, and responding to arguments and counter-arguments.
Scrivens, I think they know we don’t have it, but can’t understand why we don’t. Living life without a crutch to lean on is, for them, inconceivable – hence they think atheism must be some sort of belief system.
Grasscarp, do you have an answer to the question, or have you just popped in to support Clanad again - and to complain again?
Grasscarp, do you have an answer to the question, or have you just popped in to support Clanad again - and to complain again?
Jim, i never noticed this before AB, but it seems very clear now that believers have no rational arguments, otherwise this would be the perfect place to say so. Nobody ever has. If i continued to assert a belief that fundamentally i knew was wrong, i don't think I'd want to discuss it either.
Religion doesn't interest me in the slightest, but psychology does.
Religion doesn't interest me in the slightest, but psychology does.
The last part of my post went a bit wrong, meant to be:
"Unfortunately, most theists on AB seem to fall into two camps: the smaller group is made up of those who don't engage in a meaningful debate because they've already made up their mind, and dismiss out-of-hand both the points atheists make and the people who make them. The other camp seems to be filled with people who don't really want to talk about it, and pointedly say so, and ask us to stop talking about it. (There's also presumably a third group, those people who are religious but never even mention it or engage in the debate whatsoever.)
At any rate, it would be nice if theists started to spend less time complaining about having (or being asked to) to talk about why they believe, and more time actually talking about it, and responding to arguments and counter-arguments. "
"Unfortunately, most theists on AB seem to fall into two camps: the smaller group is made up of those who don't engage in a meaningful debate because they've already made up their mind, and dismiss out-of-hand both the points atheists make and the people who make them. The other camp seems to be filled with people who don't really want to talk about it, and pointedly say so, and ask us to stop talking about it. (There's also presumably a third group, those people who are religious but never even mention it or engage in the debate whatsoever.)
At any rate, it would be nice if theists started to spend less time complaining about having (or being asked to) to talk about why they believe, and more time actually talking about it, and responding to arguments and counter-arguments. "
I don't think they do any more either, pixie. It's something that is difficult to find out, though -- the problem is that for most religious people, their faith is so important to them that talking about it with those who don't believe seems to be interpreted as an attack not only on their faith but also on themselves. Makes it hard to talk about, really, so if there is a rational argument for faith most people seem unwilling to share it. Which is odd, because surely it would be a good thing to increase the flock. Or something along those lines.
Throughout the history of mankind, every race, tribe, or which ever grouping you want, in whatever part of the planet, has led a 'spiritual' as well as a physical existence. We now have a new minority phenomena calling themselves 'atheists', extremely vociferous, (witness this thread) unable to say simply "There probably is no God" but wishing to chastise the majority of their fellow earth-inhabitants who wish to continue with what gives them a continuity, satisfaction, and seems right for them.
Their desire to replace a transcendent God with an omnipotent humanity alters surprisingly little, as Nietzsche pointed there is still a stable metaphysical centre to the world; it is just that it is now 'us', rather than a deity, and since 'we' are sovereign, bound by no constraints which we do not legislate for ourselves, 'we' can exercise our newfound divinity by indulging among other things in creative destruction.
"What Do The Faithful Have That The Rest Of Us Don’T?"
I think atheists should be asking themselves, what is it that we have? the answer might point to a rather bleak outlook, and an unsatisfactoriness in their existence.
Their desire to replace a transcendent God with an omnipotent humanity alters surprisingly little, as Nietzsche pointed there is still a stable metaphysical centre to the world; it is just that it is now 'us', rather than a deity, and since 'we' are sovereign, bound by no constraints which we do not legislate for ourselves, 'we' can exercise our newfound divinity by indulging among other things in creative destruction.
"What Do The Faithful Have That The Rest Of Us Don’T?"
I think atheists should be asking themselves, what is it that we have? the answer might point to a rather bleak outlook, and an unsatisfactoriness in their existence.
So your on faith now.
Why is it, then, if faith is based on such strong evidence, that other people cannot see things the way the true Christian does?
The Bible explains this way: Now we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God, that we might know the things that have been kindly given us by God. .......................1 Cor. 2:12-14, you read the rest and then you see why you can’t understand the Bible, especially with regard to 144000. Is it a real number or symbolic?
Why is it, then, if faith is based on such strong evidence, that other people cannot see things the way the true Christian does?
The Bible explains this way: Now we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God, that we might know the things that have been kindly given us by God. .......................1 Cor. 2:12-14, you read the rest and then you see why you can’t understand the Bible, especially with regard to 144000. Is it a real number or symbolic?
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