Three Questions

[Khandro]

With Brexit out of the way (?!) can we now turn to more momentous issues? I refer to those posed by St Augustine in reference to Creation; Who made it? By what means? & Why?

[pixie374]

Both. Maybe just depends what you decide "information" is.
It isn't thoughts, views or opinions, it means the actual truth. Out there to believe learnt or discovered.
Even if humans never work it out, the truth is still the truth.

[pixie374]

"Believe" was "be" of course- sorry.

[Theland]

And the sentence made of scrabble tiles?

[Atheist]

Theland; the stuff you read about 'information' is not using that word in a way that information theorists use it. 'Information' is a technical, scientific mathematical term. In mathematics, 'equal' has a precise meaning, and doesn't just mean equal socially or intellectually. You are dabbling in stuff you don't understand, encouraged by quacks who love to mislead and mystify, just like the quantum healers and quantum vibration crystal pushers.

[pixie374]

How would you make a sentence (or even word) out of scrabble tiles... if you didn't already have the information... ie, knowing English? I can test it on my 3 year old granddaughter if that helps... but letters are not information- unless you know what to do with them in the first place.
Even then, with, say 7 random letters, you and I might still come up with different words...
(I will need to go back to work, fairly soon. Not ignoring you x)

[Theland]

Atheist - So I don't understand? Oh, right.
I just thought of the silly notion that a computer won't run, unless it is loaded with a programme, that is, a code, information.
To alter the function of the computer, new information, that is, new coding needs to be introduced.
But anyway, many thanks for pointing out my inadequacies.

[Theland]

Pixie, you are confusing the issue.

[pixie374]

No, I'm not. If it really is that simple, where is the answer? Humans are not computers... but in any case, surely even a computer needs to be given basic data by somebody before it can do anything with it? And where is the mind on a computer?

[Theland]

There is no mind in a computer, which is just a tool for processing information.
My understanding of information is new thought, new idea, something new that is unique to a mind.
It seems you have trouble understanding this.
Bill Gates would agree with me.
What is your opinion?
Where do you think information comes from?

[pixie374]

I have no trouble understanding it, theland, but thoughts and ideas are not "information". They are things created in a mind from existing information.

[vulcan42]

Theland, you are at it again. You complain to Atheist when he says you don't understand but you're quite happy to tell pixie the same thing.

[Theland]

(I feel like screaming now :-)
Computer programmers refer to a programme as information, that is, instruction.
This originates in the mind of the programmer.
I'm getting exhausted now.
Do you disagree with this as well?
If so, how do you describe the work of the programmer?

[Theland]

Vulcan. Not you as well!
Where have I gone wrong this time?

[Theland]

Atheist, you tell me I am dabbling in stuff I don't understand.
Would you care to enlighten me?

[Mamyalynne]

None of this can be good for your health.

[pixie374]

No, I don't agree the bit originates in the mind of the programmer. I believe that he/she would know the basic skills to program... plus the basic knowledge of what they wanted to put in- at least.
I could come up with any number of new thoughts or ideas that you like... but they could all well be entirely wrong... so how is that information?
Surely, it has to be something true?

[Theland]

A computer programme runs the computer regardless of the truth of the information. This of course determines the outcome.
As the saying goes, "Rubbish in, Rubbish out."

[Theland]

Mamya - I am having trouble being understood.
Is it my lack of articulation do you think?

Also, the contributions from Atheist and Vulcan were about as much use as an ash tray on a motorbike.

[Mamyalynne]

I'm no help either, sorry.

[pixie374]

Well obviously. But we are not talking about computers. The theory was (I believe?) that all information is created in a mind...
Tbh, I am not even worried what terminology tech people use, it's irrelevant here. I just wanted one example where information had been "created" in a mind.
Not processed, used, translated, built on etc... but created?