In Defining 'Islamophobia'...

[Khandro]

 ... shouldn't we be very careful ?

https://email.t-online.de/em#f=INBOX&;m=15679552006322910&method=showReadmail

[naomi24]

It's a rubbish book anyway.  Now if he'd only chosen a different title ....

[ToraToraTora]

Naomi: "Andy Hughes, burn a koran and any Muslim will tell you that you have offended Islam." - ....and they'd probably burn you straight after!

" Salman Rushdie wrote a book that offended Islam.   " - he wrote a novel that dared to suggest that Muhammed flirted with other religions. TBH that makes sense I mean before starting your own it normal to experience what already about. I can't see why that would be in any way offensive. Islam and common sense though are sadly not often adjacent.

[Untitled]

Genocide of bosniaks, 1990s 

Persecution of Uighurs, 2014-present 

Massacre of Cham muslims, 1970s 

Sabra and Shatila massacre, 1982 

Persecution of Rohingya muslims, 2017-present 

persecution of muslim groups is not uncommon in the modern world.. some of the operations i list above (such as the persecution of uighurs) even call themselves "anti terror" operations 

my wish here is not to see such horrible operations conducted against british muslims because i consider them to be unjust... this is not a "defence of their religion" it is because i do not believe in persecuting or wiping out vulnerable minorities... i do not think it is inconceivable that such a thing could be attempted here and indeed i believe there are people trying to make it happen. 

[ToraToraTora]

untitled: "persecution of muslim groups is not uncommon in the modern world.. some of the operations i list above (such as the persecution of uighurs) even call themselves "anti terror" operations " - glad someone is dealing with the issue.

[naomi24]

TTT, it wasn't about Mohammed flirting with other religions before Islam - it was about a few verses contained within the Koran that mentioned and lauded other gods.  The verses were, in my opinion, added by Mohammed in order to encourage local tribes to accept his new religion  - Islam.  When uproar ensued at the very idea that there might be other gods - blasphemy - the verses, which were of course claimed to be the work of the devil, mysteriously disappeared never to be seen again.  Nevertheless the tale survives - according to Islam just a myth - well they would say that wouldn't they - and poor Mr Rushdie, to his sorrow, took advantage of it.

[Untitled]

at least you are honest tora. you want to see muslims persecuted (some if the examples i listed involve extermination by the way so you can stop pretending you object to that) 

what i absolutely cannot stand is people who want this stuff and cloak themselves in euphemism or "politeness"...it's insidious

[ToraToraTora]

No I don't want to see the persecuted I just want them to integrate with us and our way of life. You know little things like stop crashing cars into people, hacking soldiers to death in the streets, generally killing random strangers because they are upset because we are not all like them. I'd like them to accept the rules in our schools and not try and convert them into whatever horror show they'd rather have by threatening and intimidating the staff. You know little things like not having a hate sermon in the street stopping the traffic. Live among us and with us no problem.

[naomi24]

You'll never convince him, TTT.  He's too far gone.

[Untitled]

"No I don't want to see the persecuted"

and yet you just expressed admiration for  the instances of persecution and genocide i listed above. which is it?

[ToraToraTora]

It's not admiration untitled, I don't want persecution or extermination but I can understand how others my have decided that's the way to deal with the problem. There are many more steps that could be taken short of those things.

[davebro3]

// i do not believe in persecuting or wiping out vulnerable minorities..//

 

Vulnerable minorities? - not for long me old china!

[naomi24]

Untitled, would you be happy for this country to become Islamic?

[ToraToraTora]

ok over to you untitled, simple question. Do you see any problems with Islam/Muslims in this country?

[Untitled]

of course there are problems among british muslims! the treatment of women and gay muslims for one is in serious need of improvement. i also hope sincerely that Michaela is permitted to ban prayers at breaktime. but that is not the same thing as characterising every last muslim as some kind of enemy... and that is what you are doing (in fact i believe you have told me so in as many words toratora on another thread)... i do not wish to see british muslims persecuted and i think there are groups hard at work to bring that about

[davebro3]

//that is not the same thing as characterising every last muslim as some kind of enemy//

I regard ALL religionists as my enemy - and Muslims as particularly pernicious ones.

[Untitled]

then you would be in good company with Stalin dave... i do not think totalitarian ideas are much use for anything except killing

[ToraToraTora]

16:29, ok so why aren't they putting their house in order? Why are there not TV adverts explaining that they are not our enemy? Why are they not using Takfir on the nutters? Why are you standard good guy muslims not all over the media condeming extremists and supporting their chosen nation. Why are they not integratring with education rather than trying to alter it to their own parameters? Why are they still killing ther daughters for falling in love with the "wrong" person? I think the "moderates" are smart enough to make the right noises but quietly they approve of the whole death or conversion thing.

[naomi24]

Untitled, you didn't answer my question.  Would you be happy to see this country become Islamic? 

[ToraToraTora]

Bridgitte Gabriel Nails it here:

&t=1s

 

[davebro3]

//then you would be in good company with Stalin dave... i do not think totalitarian ideas are much use for anything except killing//

I didn't say I want to kill my enemies. I'm perfectly willing to live in peace with them provided they reciprocate.