ChatterBank0 min ago
Personal Freedom?
80 Answers
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This piece gives pause for thought - at what point does the protection of the population violate civil liberties?
In America, a culture far more twitchy about perceived rights to curb any of its freedoms, the notion of a government dictating just about anything designed to keep the public safe from itself meets with howls of protest and quoting the Constitution.
Over here we are slightly more reasonable, but the 'mask' question has caused similar debates to spring up.
Do you feel that you have a right not to wear a mask if you choose not to, because it infringes on your freedom of choice, or do you feel that mandatory mask wearing and enforcement is justified for the good of the majority, and on that basis, personal freedom needs to take a back seat?
- just click the 'Free Browse' button.
This piece gives pause for thought - at what point does the protection of the population violate civil liberties?
In America, a culture far more twitchy about perceived rights to curb any of its freedoms, the notion of a government dictating just about anything designed to keep the public safe from itself meets with howls of protest and quoting the Constitution.
Over here we are slightly more reasonable, but the 'mask' question has caused similar debates to spring up.
Do you feel that you have a right not to wear a mask if you choose not to, because it infringes on your freedom of choice, or do you feel that mandatory mask wearing and enforcement is justified for the good of the majority, and on that basis, personal freedom needs to take a back seat?
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NJ, if you've decided not to wear a mask, how do you do your shopping, or use public transport - you've mentioned having to get two buses to seek medical help because you reckon your local GPs are duff?
Don't get me wrong: I think it's stupid that I have to wear a mask to go into my local village shop for 20 seconds to buy a paper in the morning, but I wear one as I don't want the hassle of an argument about it, with the shopkeeper or some member of the public.
Don't get me wrong: I think it's stupid that I have to wear a mask to go into my local village shop for 20 seconds to buy a paper in the morning, but I wear one as I don't want the hassle of an argument about it, with the shopkeeper or some member of the public.
Ellipsis,
I am not sure NJ goes as far to suggest mask wearing is harmful.
( please do correct me if I am wrong )
NJ, thank you for replying to my question. I had tried finding information on the '30 minutes' you mentioned and had no success ( gov.uk and general searches)
I do not like masks, have had to use them in the past and I sweat easily and find them uncomfortable, but as I said previously, I think spread may be mainly aerosol and Droplet spread - droplets sprayed into the air when an infected person coughs, talks or sneezes, and as masks are a barrier of sorts AND viruses are tiny infectious agents that *rely on living cells to multiply* AND masks in conjunction with keeping a 2 metre gap between people, I will stick with a mask.
https:/
I am not sure NJ goes as far to suggest mask wearing is harmful.
( please do correct me if I am wrong )
NJ, thank you for replying to my question. I had tried finding information on the '30 minutes' you mentioned and had no success ( gov.uk and general searches)
I do not like masks, have had to use them in the past and I sweat easily and find them uncomfortable, but as I said previously, I think spread may be mainly aerosol and Droplet spread - droplets sprayed into the air when an infected person coughs, talks or sneezes, and as masks are a barrier of sorts AND viruses are tiny infectious agents that *rely on living cells to multiply* AND masks in conjunction with keeping a 2 metre gap between people, I will stick with a mask.
https:/
//NJ, if you've decided not to wear a mask, how do you do your shopping, or use public transport - you've mentioned having to get two buses to seek medical help because you reckon your local GPs are duff?//
The law says you must wear one unless you have a reasonable excuse. BTW I only need two buses to go to my local hospital (which, thankfully I rarely do). My GP is 300 yards away.
//I am not sure NJ goes as far to suggest mask wearing is harmful.
( please do correct me if I am wrong )//
What I'm suggesting is that used incorrectly (which almost everybody does apart, perhaps, from woofgang who seems to have most of the angles covered) they increase the risk of contracting not only the coronavirus, but also anything else nasty that happens to be lurking on the things the wearer touches. Those things get transferred to the mask as they adjust it, remove it, replace it. The mask - nice and warm and damp, remember, after being worn for a while - sits conveniently in front of the wearers nose and mouth. You risk actually contaminating a piece of warm damp cloth covering your airways. People trained in PPE use are trained that this is an absolute no-no and it's all very well the government telling you not to do so. To see how well this works just take a look at people around you who are wearing masks. Particularly have a look as they enter or leave a shop, or board or alight a bus. I saw a bloke this morning drag his from his pocket as the bus drew up, dropped it on the floor as it got caught up with his keys, picked it up and strapped it straight on to his face (using the hands that he had used to read his daily paper).
Since the start of all this I have never remained in. I have been out almost every day, usually to a shop, usually on a bus or train. I made stringent efforts not to touch my face whilst I was out. It was government advice in the early days and it seemed to make sense. It was something I could do reasonably easily and I became almost religious about it. Now, if I follow the latest regulations, I cannot avoid touching my facemask and/or my face. It's simply not possible. I'm not trained in the use of PPE, I have only "amateur" masks and I need to remove and replace it whilst I'm out. The exact opposite of what I was told at the beginning. This presents a considerably increased risk to me (albeit only from miniscule to extremely minimal) and it is not something I am prepared to tolerate.
The law says you must wear one unless you have a reasonable excuse. BTW I only need two buses to go to my local hospital (which, thankfully I rarely do). My GP is 300 yards away.
//I am not sure NJ goes as far to suggest mask wearing is harmful.
( please do correct me if I am wrong )//
What I'm suggesting is that used incorrectly (which almost everybody does apart, perhaps, from woofgang who seems to have most of the angles covered) they increase the risk of contracting not only the coronavirus, but also anything else nasty that happens to be lurking on the things the wearer touches. Those things get transferred to the mask as they adjust it, remove it, replace it. The mask - nice and warm and damp, remember, after being worn for a while - sits conveniently in front of the wearers nose and mouth. You risk actually contaminating a piece of warm damp cloth covering your airways. People trained in PPE use are trained that this is an absolute no-no and it's all very well the government telling you not to do so. To see how well this works just take a look at people around you who are wearing masks. Particularly have a look as they enter or leave a shop, or board or alight a bus. I saw a bloke this morning drag his from his pocket as the bus drew up, dropped it on the floor as it got caught up with his keys, picked it up and strapped it straight on to his face (using the hands that he had used to read his daily paper).
Since the start of all this I have never remained in. I have been out almost every day, usually to a shop, usually on a bus or train. I made stringent efforts not to touch my face whilst I was out. It was government advice in the early days and it seemed to make sense. It was something I could do reasonably easily and I became almost religious about it. Now, if I follow the latest regulations, I cannot avoid touching my facemask and/or my face. It's simply not possible. I'm not trained in the use of PPE, I have only "amateur" masks and I need to remove and replace it whilst I'm out. The exact opposite of what I was told at the beginning. This presents a considerably increased risk to me (albeit only from miniscule to extremely minimal) and it is not something I am prepared to tolerate.
In the New Statesman Dr Phil Whitaker wrote last week...
“[scientists] pontificating about how Covid-19 isn’t that serious; how lockdown was an overreaction; decrying mandatory face masks as an affront to liberty. But you won’t find many front-line clinicians among them.”
Only a real fool would argue against a front-line clinician.
“[scientists] pontificating about how Covid-19 isn’t that serious; how lockdown was an overreaction; decrying mandatory face masks as an affront to liberty. But you won’t find many front-line clinicians among them.”
Only a real fool would argue against a front-line clinician.
brainiac makes a valid point in so far as wearing one to avoid aggravation.
This is the sole reason I'm wearing one in shops.
Even though it is so obvious that passing somebody fleetingly in a shop will not affect me or the person I'm passing, I'm wearing one simply to avoid getting into a row with some busybody loudmouth moron who will without doubt decide they're holding the moral high ground.
They serve no meaningful purpose, but I'm being weak and wearing one for the sake of a quiet life.
This is the sole reason I'm wearing one in shops.
Even though it is so obvious that passing somebody fleetingly in a shop will not affect me or the person I'm passing, I'm wearing one simply to avoid getting into a row with some busybody loudmouth moron who will without doubt decide they're holding the moral high ground.
They serve no meaningful purpose, but I'm being weak and wearing one for the sake of a quiet life.
I think David has a crush. Those "public" schools turn out some "odd fellows" according to a UK friend.
But, never mind. As I said on the toilet thread, just ask one of your local experts on all matters, like NJ.
https:/
Cheers.
But, never mind. As I said on the toilet thread, just ask one of your local experts on all matters, like NJ.
https:/
Cheers.
//No, let's follow the advice of some random guy on the Internet's cousin ...//
No, let's not do that. Let's look a little wider afield.
//Only a real fool would argue against a front-line clinician.//
OK then. Left it for a day but yesterday in a couple of the "dailies" there was a letter from a real fool. It came from a Professor John Fairclough, of Cardiff. Problem is, he is a front line clinician as well. I looked him up:
http://
https:/
Seems like a good egg. Far more well qualified than my cousin, I'm sure. Not what you'd call "a random bloke on the internet" either. Here's what he wrote:
"I wore a mask as a surgeon for 40 years but there is no evidence in scientific publications that mask-wearing by the general public reduces the overall transmission of Covid-19.
Masks are not airtight and are constantly touched, put down, picked up and reused. In effect they are a biohazard, a Petri dish for biological transmission."
So it's not only me - and my cousin. The government is being driven by the ridiculous hysteria coming from parts of the population. Their hysteria overwhelms any thought or reason they may have had. The government has reacted to this. "We must do something to allay their fears. Enforcing face masks is something we can do, so we'll do that."
No, let's not do that. Let's look a little wider afield.
//Only a real fool would argue against a front-line clinician.//
OK then. Left it for a day but yesterday in a couple of the "dailies" there was a letter from a real fool. It came from a Professor John Fairclough, of Cardiff. Problem is, he is a front line clinician as well. I looked him up:
http://
https:/
Seems like a good egg. Far more well qualified than my cousin, I'm sure. Not what you'd call "a random bloke on the internet" either. Here's what he wrote:
"I wore a mask as a surgeon for 40 years but there is no evidence in scientific publications that mask-wearing by the general public reduces the overall transmission of Covid-19.
Masks are not airtight and are constantly touched, put down, picked up and reused. In effect they are a biohazard, a Petri dish for biological transmission."
So it's not only me - and my cousin. The government is being driven by the ridiculous hysteria coming from parts of the population. Their hysteria overwhelms any thought or reason they may have had. The government has reacted to this. "We must do something to allay their fears. Enforcing face masks is something we can do, so we'll do that."
Fairclough? the prof?
he is an orthopod for chrissakes
“Apart from his expertise as a practising orthopaedic surgeon, which is well-worthy of recognition, Prof Fairclough has made a great contribution to educating the next generation of sport and exercise medicine specialists
they dont do everyday ops like appendices let alone intensive care or virology
0verheard in a hospital before I retired 2012
Admin ( fresh from tescos, known as Rita the Deleter)
why cant that doctor over there take out the appendix in this sick three year old?
Member of staff - me actually - because he is a psychiatrist
he is an orthopod for chrissakes
“Apart from his expertise as a practising orthopaedic surgeon, which is well-worthy of recognition, Prof Fairclough has made a great contribution to educating the next generation of sport and exercise medicine specialists
they dont do everyday ops like appendices let alone intensive care or virology
0verheard in a hospital before I retired 2012
Admin ( fresh from tescos, known as Rita the Deleter)
why cant that doctor over there take out the appendix in this sick three year old?
Member of staff - me actually - because he is a psychiatrist
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