Sack The Padres?

[Theland1]

In the event of a totally secular government. should the military Padres be sacked as irrelevant?

[Octavius]

That does muddy the waters somewhat keyplus.

I think Naomi was really asking why people who do not believe in (your) God, but yet live good, true and moral lives in accordance with the laws of their land, are vilified by those who do believe in (your) God. They assert that it is (your) Gods vengeance.

Is that so? If so, for what crime?

[keyplus90]

Octavius � If that is what you say Naomi is asking then I am not talking about people if they are only doing it because other people do not believe in their God. I do not think that any religion gives people right to force others into their religion and Islam is not the exception. However if you are talking about general preaching of the religion then I am sure (as you have lived in Pakistan) how many people did force you to become Muslim? Even here in the UK who do you get more knocking on your front door, Muslims or Non Muslims?

[Octavius]

No, not about being forced to believe, just people being denigrated for not believing.

[naomi24]

Morning chaps,

Ahh, Keyplus, I'm delighted you brought the subject of exams back into the fray. How about you answer my questions on the same subject that you previously refused to address - here.

naomi24
Sat 01/11/08
09:49
More thoughts on these 'tests'. What are they for exactly? Are they some sort of entrance exam? What happens if the test is too difficult and the strain results in someone having a nervous breakdown? Would that be classed as a failure?

You continually compare man's law to the law of your God, but if you want to do that you have to consider that there are many people who don't break the law, and so have committed no crime, so your comparisons don't work. It seems what you're really talking about is the greatest sin - non-belief in God - but it makes absolutely no sense to me that a compassionate God would condemn a good person to eternal hell simply because his ego can't cope with someone who, for very good reasons in God's case, doesn't worship and adore him. What caring and loving father would treat his children so abominably - and how could he ever expect to be genuinely loved and respected if he ruled by intimidation and fear, which is what this amounts to? His children might be too afraid to disobey him, but they certainly wouldn't love and respect him. Your God demands worship - and it seems he'll get it in any way he can. Boy, that's some ego!

[keyplus90]

Octavius � Did anyone denigrate you? I am seriously curious. If true then what happened and what did you do?

Naomi � I can�t see where you posted that from. But lets finish it with this. I have children of my own and if one of them would not listen to me then I will try my best to make him understand what I am saying, I will do my best to help him but even after this if he keeps on ignoring then I will have to make a choice between the one who does not listen to me and the others who do. Obvious and just choice would be to favour the later otherwise it will not be fair on them, would it?

However if you think other way around is better then I will not argue on that. Other choice is even easier. If you do not even believe in God then why are you worried about his rewards or punishment? For you neither he exists nor does his punishment. So stop worrying about it.

[terambulan]

Keyplus make a choice between the one who does not listen to me and the others who do. Obvious and just choice would be to favour the later otherwise it will not be fair on them, would it?

Seems you are not respecting the children's invidivuality, nor their different interests. They may all be your children but each one has its own brain. It would be cruel to enforce your outlook on all of them as the individuality would be lost.

If you were reared & educated in Pakistan and the children r & e in UK their outlook is bound to differ from yours purely due to their different environment, that you brought them into.

[WaldoMcFroog]

Are any of your children lacking credible evidence as to your existance, Keyplus..?

[keyplus90]

We are not really talking about children. That�s hypothetical as. We are talking about the one who has sense and can use it. That�s common sense I thought.

[keyplus90]

Or lets have another easier example as I know there is no university in the world who provide degree in common sense.

What if you are an employer and you have rules and regulations that you know are the right ones for your business (you may think of smoking on the premises). Now you have 2 employee (or think of more than 2 if you prefer) and one of them abides by and the other on does not give a damn about it.

Which one would you keep and which one would you sack if it comes to where you have no choice?

[WaldoMcFroog]

Gosh, is it hypothetical? I hadn't realised.

Common sense also tells you that if there's no good reason to think that you're actually employed by the company in question, you won't see any need to pay any attention to the company handbook. One would rationally expect to recieve remuneration in exchange for one's labour and a desk to sit at etc if one did actually work for the company.

Failing this, why would you think you worked for the company..?

[naomi24]

Keyplus, you still haven't answered my question. It seems that simply believing isn't enough for this God - he needs to test us too - so just what is this test you keep telling us about? What are we being tested for? And if the test proves too much to handle and we suffer a nervous breakdown, does that mean we've failed, and are consequently doomed?

Life throws so much as some, and much less at others, so if God is, indeed, setting the papers, we're not even all starting on a level playing field, are we? Does that seem fair to you? It doesn't to me. If the trials and tribulations of life are God's test, then for many, its a malicious one, and there's no common sense in it whatsoever.

I'll defy any parent who tells me their child hasn't disobeyed them, or hurt them at some time, but only the worst kind of control-freak would be hard enough, and cruel enough, and selfish enough, to turn his back completely and write that child off forever.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, I've just realised what you've said. Sorry, I missed that bit, but I would like to answer it.

If you do not even believe in God then why are you worried about his rewards or punishment? For you neither he exists nor does his punishment. So stop worrying about it.

You may find it difficult to understand, but I'm not only thinking of myself. I find it incredibly sad to see other people, for no good or logical reason, wasting their lives quaking in their boots at the thought of the dire punishment that this God may mete out to them after death - but that aside, whether I believe in him or not, there's no doubt that his perceived influence has an enormous effect on people around me, and even affects the way whole countries are governed - hence it affects me.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, since you brought the subject of tests up again, would you please answer my questions? You've told us many times that your religion has the answers to everything, but my previous questions on this subject have remained unanswered, as have these current questions, so am I to assume that Islam doesn't have all the answers?

[keyplus90]

Islam does have all the answers and solution for every single problem of the society as well as individuals who are looking for it with open and sincere mind. But in fact Islam may not have the answers you would be satisfied with. Because Islam overwrite satisfaction of the individuals when it comes to society so few individuals decide not to accept it. Example again is of alcohol, that its consequences are bad for society, therefore it is not allowed but few individuals will not agree with it as they love drinking.

Same way your questions have, are and will never be answered as you will never accept it. Because on one side you talk about priests and the others not being sincere and honest with their religious teachings and when someone tells you that they would be punished for that, then you call God vengeful and punishing. You may agree with a teacher, doctor or anyone being sacked, fined or even arrested for punishment by other human if they were not fulfilling their duty the way they were supposed to but when it comes to the justice of God then you do not agree with it. I have come to the conclusion that no one can ever answer your questions because you have a very severe negative mentality.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, how can you possibly say I don't accept the answers when you haven't given any? If you insist that Islam has all the answers, then tell me what they are. What is this test is for, how is it fair when we don't all start on a level playing field, and what happens if our health suffers under the strain, and we fail?

Although I don�t agree with you, I understand your belief that people who have committed crimes must pay the penalty, but I can�t accept your conviction that a good man must also be punished. What crime has he committed? Yes, your God is vengeful - and unjustly and irrationally so.

You may have come to the conclusion that I have a very severe negative mentality, but that�s a cop out, because I have come to the conclusion that you can�t give a rational answer to the questions - and neither can Islam.