Is there a god?

[LeedsRhinos]

Is there a god? I mean look at all the different relgions around the world who all believe that THEY are right & the others are wrong. They can't all be right can they. Which is why in my opion it all rubbish.

[Merlin]

Hi IR. Honest (for me) answer (Part 1): JC is reported to have said that people should come to him �as children�. Perhaps he meant that they should take him for exactly what he appeared to be without prejudice and accept what he taught without question. This cuts both ways � maybe he was saying that adults have difficulty accepting some of his teachings because some of what he taught contradicted their learning and that children, or someone with an innocent child-like attitude, could accept his teachings because, to put it bluntly, they didn�t know any better. That�s one interpretation. Another interpretation is that JC was scolding the so-called �learned� adults for being dogmatic and pointing to the children as examples of being open-minded. No need to choke on the tea � I have no problem with the historical JC and his teachings in general. Again, we can agree that JC said that (there�s no mileage to be gained in denying it) it�s the interpretations that we choose that differ. One fits your view and one fits mine and as far as I can see they�re both valid and both pertinent to today�s discussion. Modern miracles � now they�re a problem. I haven�t spent much time on miracles because we would have to examine the evidence for each and every one. The problem for me with miracles (the hard-core ones that won�t go away, that is), is that a very personal religious experience took place and despite any claimed physical characteristics, they�re very subjective and not amenable to study. They can, usually, only be discussed in theoretical/philosophical terms. If you want to claim that miracles are real and caused by God either to reveal his presence, answer a prayer etc, then you will have to make that claim with a suggestion of how that is achieved. To be blunt, again, my view is that miracles are either man made, natural phenomena or not really miracles.

[Merlin]

Honest (for me) answer (Part 2): NT miracles. Here�s a thing to consider; JC was one of the greatest showmen in history � thousands flocked to see his show wherever he went and he had several helpers in attendance. It wouldn�t have been such a bad thing to fake a miracle if it meant saving another thousand souls. Demons and the devil are symbolic representations of, generally and very loosely speaking, the antitheses of angels and God. Just as God represents the sum of human aspiration, so Satan represents the opposite (whatever that would be called). If there was no evil, we wouldn�t know what was good. Demons and the devil are symbolic concepts that allow us to personify and discuss the nature of evil � but that depends on your definition of the terms. Can Satan be all bad? � he was an angel once. I don�t know enough about other religions to comment usefully on similar patterns of belief but all men have similar brains that work in a similar way (although at varying degrees of intellectually ability and conscious awareness). It seems to me that if everyone has the same machine, they will produce the same goods unless they tweak their machines.

[I.R.]

Nice lecture there, Merlin. Some more questions, if you please. See, childlike me, I'm as open-minded as they come and I'm sort of curious about what sent you over to the other side, considering you used to attend sunday school once upon a time. So you don't believe Jesus performed miracles. And you don't believe that spirit beings exist. So you think the whole "Jesus" thing was a massive hoax. But he somehow managed to convince a handful of people who in turn convinced others; absolute conviction that made them willing to risk all they had, even to the point of death. Perhaps they were just brainwashed, hmm?

[el duerino]

a couple of years ago, tricksters managed to fool a science lab set up to test 'psychics' into thinking they were genuine. And now you want us to believe that a few illiterate peasants are reliable witnesses?

[I.R.]

El D- I'm not asking you to believe anything, simply asking what you think. Don't forget, you maintain that my child-like reasoning doesn't hold water, so I'm asking the questions now.

[el duerino]

No jesus did not perform miracles. no spirit beings do not exist. I dont know how the jesus myth originated, there simply isnt enough evidence for me to guess. even now there are cult leaders who persuade their followers to commit themselves to the point of death i.e. waco siege. so it is far from unknown, in fact it is quite common for people to throw away all rationality when they cannot handle life. do you think the cult leader at waco had divine powers? no? so a man does not need to have divine powers to have men die for them. brainwashing is 'non divine' :) . for your information IR I went to a religious CofE school for the first 6 years of my schooling. at around 12 I realised that most of the people getting confirmed really did not know anything about their own beliefs. I decided there was no god at about 12 and became quite resentful at the overtly xstian nature of even supposed secular schooling - chapel once a week etc. in short, i have very little respect for xstians in general. the ones i do respect are respected because of their characteristics in spite of their religion, not because of it.

[Merlin]

Didn�t mean to lecture � I�m not a teacher � just a learner. Tales from the Darkside, Part 1. Well, I don�t honestly recall now the exact cause of the veil dropping over my eyes - I guess I was only about 8 at the time. I was a good child, though, not prone to naughtiness. I do recall that it all seemed false, pointless and, probably more to the point for an 8 year old� boring. My views have been challenged over the intervening years, though. I passed my Religious Knowledge O Level (when they were real qualifications), married a Catholic, I occasionally attend mass, I accepted an invitation to attend a Baptist service where, it was promised, I would have an experience, I worked for 5 years with a faithful theist learned in the appropriate philosophy and we have been having a discussion for all that time. So whatever dragged me over to the dark side all those years ago, there has been nothing to call me back and only confirmation that I am right. If �exist� means to be physical entity, or even a �spiritual� one that wanders the earth among men whispering in their ears or possessing them, then no, I don�t accept that they exist.

[Merlin]

Tales from the Darkside, Part 2. I would never say that the whole �Jesus� thing was a massive hoax. How can I describe my idea of J of N? Well, perhaps a Ghandi sort of figure, but then again, no, much more than that. A Jew with a radically different take on life dedicated to enlightening the masses. One of the greatest teachers ever. To cut to the chase, just as he is described (more or less) in the NT if you leave out literal miracles and the divine aspects. And I wouldn�t say �he somehow managed to convince a handful of people who in turn convinced others� I have no reason to believe that he was not a genuine (in the �honest� sense) person. We know from scripture, however, that various groups tried to take advantage of him � maybe there was a certain naivete about him in his innocence. The message he taught was self-evidently idealistic and audiences should not have needed convincing of its righteousness. (I know this seems to go against what I suggested earlier about miracles). What he was doing, though, was construed to be against the law of the land and by continuing his ministry he inevitably landed up in front of the beak. After some squabbling between the various authorities, the verdict was handed down, and then the standard sentence. If it had not been for the resurrection story being accepted, we would probably never have heard of him � so we should be grateful for that, however it came about.

[Merlin]

Tales from the Darkside, Part 3. I do, however, have some difficulties in accepting certain aspects of the crucifixion and the resurrection. How well versed are you in those? One concerns the Trinity; how was God the Son �abandoned� on the cross by God the Father and God the Holy Spirit, when all three are one single God; one single entity? One concerns the resurrection, or more precisely, the ascension. Did Jesus ascend to heaven in his physical human body? I�m not having a go � seriously � these are the questions I must ask when I�m told that Jesus was the son of God and that the NT is literally true.

[I.R.]

Merlin, this is where my faith differs from the general thing most christians believe. God is the supreme being; JC is his son, also created just like we were; the holy spirit is God's active force. About the resurrection, Jesus was originally a spirit being before coming down to earth in human form and after the resurrection he ascended to heaven in his spirit form. Of course, I wasn't there when these things happened; I have no other proof other than what is in the bible, but then I believe the bible is true.

[I.R.]

Sorry, I forgot to add there that I don't believe in the trinity concept.

[Merlin]

Hi IR. That's OK. It's good that you have personalised your religion and not blindly followed a major brand without thinking about it. It does raise a problem for me though - I might have to think of some new answers!! But to start with, just so that I cn get a handle on your view - In what way was JC God's 'Son' - the same way as the NT (via Mary?) - that wouldn't seem to fit with 'coming down as a spirit'? At the ascension - what happened to the body? The disciples who met JC after the resurrection reported a physical presence. If JC ascended in spirit only (which, in my view, is more sensible) - what happened to the body? And remember - it's OK to say 'I don't know' - I expect I will a few times.

[PAPPY]

which only goes to show, most people believe what's convenient for them. Merlin, true being elusive does not equal non-existence. Bigfoot or Nessie might still be out there..... My point was that creation as proof might be valid, why is there energy at all, where did it come from, etc. could all be valid clues pointing to the existence of a higher power or creative force and YET in my day to day i do not feel or see the presence or evidence of "god". We have to go back billions of years. So even if i accept that god did create the universe, what has he done for me lately?

[I.R.]

Jesus christ was created by God. in the bible he is called the "firstborn of all creation", and "the beginning of the creation of God". He was sent down to earth by God transferring his life to the womb of Mary. On resurrection, he took up a visible form, spirits can take up a physical appearance so they can be seen by humans. Don't forget, all these facts are things learned from the bible. That's my reference book.

[I.R.]

And,Merlin, about what happened to the body, "I don't know"! Perhaps a more detailed study of the bible will reveal it.

[Merlin]

IR I can�t let it go just yet � my �What happened to the body� question was a bit of a poke in the eye and I may put it to you again in a different way later with a bit more explanation. Anyway, to take a step back for a moment, I�m a bit confused by your statement that the Bible is your reference book and you believe it literally � correct me if I�m wrong. How do you cope when there are different accounts of the same event and that event is absolutely paramount to faith in Jesus as Son of God (Trinity or not). Take the events after the resurrection for example, in Luke 24 the apostles have physical contact with Jesus before his ascension, in Matthew 28 there is physical contact but the ascension is not mentioned, in Mark 16 there is no physical contact before the ascension and in John 20-21 there is physical contact but no ascension. Which one do you choose?

[Merlin]

PAPPY: Why is everyone except me getting a �report this answer� tag on their postings? Is there any way of getting to the last posting of a thread without having to tap through every �next 20� postings? Well now, I doubt very much that IR�s faith in the Bible as truth is a convenience � I suspect it�s a difficult position to hold. My official position is that God has done nothing for you because there is no God. But one theory is that God created the universe (inc genesis), then sat back and watched. I think that one�s out of favour at the moment. 1. It is not sufficient to say that just because the cosmos exists that there must have been an intelligent creator. 2, What�s your understanding of the definition of God? What�s God done for you (the unofficial and non-attributable answer): you were born, you are still alive, people love you (aaaaaaahh!) you are fascinated by stuff (art, music, nature), you have the intelligence to perceive God�s creation and if you truly repent of all your sins and have faith in God�s love and power, your soul will live forever in the presence of God. (Don�t tell anyone I said that). Have you done anything that deserves a favour from God?

[PAPPY]

I saved this page to favorites, that speeds things up. They all got the report this answer, even yours. I am not saying existence proves a divine creator, I'm just saying its okay not to know, it doesn't matter anyway. It has no real effect on our lives. Maybe for the believer it has an imagined effect. But just being here i credit to my parents biological urges. As far as life goes i guess its better to be alive than not, but i wouldn't say that if i'd never been born! when i was 8 i asked my mom if there was a god, and she responded "what do you think?" So i've been thinking ever since. I've decided its okay not to know, and that pretty much all religion is bunk. I think organized religion is a barrier to true spirituality, and most religious people don't adhere %100 to their particular flavor anyway (take I.R.) Damn! how many different sects of Christianity are there anyway? They can't even agree amongst themselves, every one thinks they can split off and start their own version. In my mind that invalidates the whole concept. Why would a great and powerful being need with our worship anyway. I really can't stand religion and I don't see how any thinking person buys into it at all.

[Clanad]

So... where to begin. Lets establish the reliability of the writings... Old Testament...before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls,our oldest copy of the Hebrew text was the Masoretic Text, written about 800 A.D. However, the Dead Sea Scrolls date to about the time of Yeshua Ha'Mashiach and we have the Septuagint, a Greek translation dating to the second century B.C. This means there is about 800 to 1,000 years fromt he earliest copy to the latest. Yet they are nearly (95%) identical with only minor textual differences. New Testament...Space limits the discussion, but suffice it to say that there approximatley 24,000 various copies of the New Testament, in part or whole dating from 125 A.D. The autographs were written between 40 to 80 A.D. accoriding to many scholars including Nelson Glueck, former President of the Jewish Theological Seminary in the Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati. The copies agree with each other in 99.5% of the text. The discrepancies are spelling and word order. This compares to 95% for Homer's Iliad which has only 643 copies extant, the original believed to have been written in 800 B.C. and the earliest copy in 400 B.C., some 500 years... more

[Clanad]

This presents a dilemma for critics who believe the writings have changed through translations. They haven't. Rudolph Bultmann in Germany, about 1890 or so, was instrumetnal in establishing the "higher criticism" of Biblical studies. Simply stated, Bultmann and others believed the writings were constructed "after the fact". That has been thoroughly discredited. So, okay... believe it or not, I haven't lost sight of the original question "Is there a god?", but it grows late, and there is probably a glaze over some eyes by now. More later...