Body & Soul1 min ago
Florida Pulse Gay Club Attacked In Orlando - Multiple Injuries
//The attacker is reported to still be inside the Pulse Club and to have taken hostages.//
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I wonder what's going on here?
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I wonder what's going on here?
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I refer to my self as VE for the same reasons, SP. I don't mind what you call me.
Are you being serious in your comparison of the treatment of gays in what used to called the "free" countries of the West and their treatment in most Islam majority countries? Douglas Murray once made the point when faced with a similar line of argument that the difference between somebody who is opposed to gay marriage (I'm one such) and those who want to throw gays from tall buildings is not trivial.
Are you being serious in your comparison of the treatment of gays in what used to called the "free" countries of the West and their treatment in most Islam majority countries? Douglas Murray once made the point when faced with a similar line of argument that the difference between somebody who is opposed to gay marriage (I'm one such) and those who want to throw gays from tall buildings is not trivial.
Evidence of the terrorist angle:
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FBI Special Agent Ron Hopper told reporters that Mateen had been interviewed by FBI officers twice in 2013 following inflammatory comments to colleagues asserting ties to the so-called Islamic State group (IS).
The investigation ended after officers were unable to substantiate the claims. However, Mateen was questioned again in 2014 about a potential connection to Moner Mohammad Abu-Salha, an American known to have carried out a suicide bombing in Syria.
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An FBI spokesman said Mateen phoned emergency services during the attack and pledged allegiance to IS.
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If you believe that terrorism has to be centrally organised and coordinated then there is no evidence of terrorism. But going by the above, it's fair to say that this gunman was motivated by IS and pledged allegiance to IS and therefore I'd say it was a terrorist attack.
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FBI Special Agent Ron Hopper told reporters that Mateen had been interviewed by FBI officers twice in 2013 following inflammatory comments to colleagues asserting ties to the so-called Islamic State group (IS).
The investigation ended after officers were unable to substantiate the claims. However, Mateen was questioned again in 2014 about a potential connection to Moner Mohammad Abu-Salha, an American known to have carried out a suicide bombing in Syria.
...
An FBI spokesman said Mateen phoned emergency services during the attack and pledged allegiance to IS.
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If you believe that terrorism has to be centrally organised and coordinated then there is no evidence of terrorism. But going by the above, it's fair to say that this gunman was motivated by IS and pledged allegiance to IS and therefore I'd say it was a terrorist attack.
Arggghh...it's a major pain scooting back pages on an iPhone.
VE - just assume naomi24 is correct. In the great scheme of things, her accusations and my denials are irrelevant.
I think our difference may centre on the fact that I'm focussed on the victims of this attack, and naomi24 is focussed on the attacker.
I think that's entirely natural.
Everyone is approaching this from slightly different angles and everyone's views are valid - whether or not you agree with them.
VE - just assume naomi24 is correct. In the great scheme of things, her accusations and my denials are irrelevant.
I think our difference may centre on the fact that I'm focussed on the victims of this attack, and naomi24 is focussed on the attacker.
I think that's entirely natural.
Everyone is approaching this from slightly different angles and everyone's views are valid - whether or not you agree with them.
Dad says he had no idea what motivated him
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naomi24
We have reached an agreement.
I hope there is a special place in hell for him.
I actually feel a bit disappointed that he was killed. Much better to be placed in a jail in Florida.
I've seen what those jails are like. He would spend the rest of his life in absolute fear. They are incredibly scary.
We have reached an agreement.
I hope there is a special place in hell for him.
I actually feel a bit disappointed that he was killed. Much better to be placed in a jail in Florida.
I've seen what those jails are like. He would spend the rest of his life in absolute fear. They are incredibly scary.
I realised going back to it under Naomi's prompting that I hadn't paid full attention to one of SP's posts. Quoting my "Under Islamic law sodomy is punishable by death" SP asks the reasonable questions:
"...but that being the case - surely all Islamic states should have that on the statute books?
And here's another anomaly - are there any Christian-dominated countries who have death sentences, or extremely long prison sentences for gay people?"
On the first point, SP, many Muslim countries (I mean countries with a Muslim majority) have secular constitutions for various reasons. (I'm not a social historian - maybe one of AB's polymaths might want to comment.) Some of these might be modernisation (Turkey),colonial inheritance (Pakistan) and pressure from the West. The most egregious example of the last is slavery which was legal in many Muslim countries well into the twentieth century. But the point is that the Sharia penal code (stoning, amputation, whipping) is still practised in many Muslim countries and there are several countries where homosexuals face execution.
But there's bad news. Anyone who has been using his eyes and ears will have noticed the rise of Islamism in the last few decades. This has resulted in the inclusion of parts of the Sharia in existing law, or the devolution of legal powers to local regions. Pakistan is an example of the latter. (see Wiki under Maududi). W hat used to called "tolerant" Indonesia now has a state where Sharia is enforced, as has Nigeria. Heard of Muslim patrols, or the Sharia police? They've got them in Saudi and they've now got them in Indonesia. (We had a few of them in Tower Hamlets, too, didn't we a few years back? Expect more). This increased religious conservatism is occurring everywhere and is bad (in no particular order) for: (a) all women; (b) all non-Muslims; (c) all gays. A point mad rather forcefully by Milo Yiannopoulos in the link I posted.
Do you think none of this is going to make your life less comfortable, SP? Did you know that 50% of Muslims interviewed in the recent Channel 4 Muslim attitude's survey said that homosexuality should be illegal? If this is true of the Muslim community as a whole (and knowing how fast that community is growing and knowing how good it is at getting its own way) I as a gay person would be worried.
Regarding the second question, well, Oscar Wilde did two years, didn't he. And, of course, most of us know about the disgraceful treatment of Turing. That shows how recently freedoms, now taken for granted, have been accorded the gays. You don't want these recent freedoms endangered, do you? Neither do I.
"...but that being the case - surely all Islamic states should have that on the statute books?
And here's another anomaly - are there any Christian-dominated countries who have death sentences, or extremely long prison sentences for gay people?"
On the first point, SP, many Muslim countries (I mean countries with a Muslim majority) have secular constitutions for various reasons. (I'm not a social historian - maybe one of AB's polymaths might want to comment.) Some of these might be modernisation (Turkey),colonial inheritance (Pakistan) and pressure from the West. The most egregious example of the last is slavery which was legal in many Muslim countries well into the twentieth century. But the point is that the Sharia penal code (stoning, amputation, whipping) is still practised in many Muslim countries and there are several countries where homosexuals face execution.
But there's bad news. Anyone who has been using his eyes and ears will have noticed the rise of Islamism in the last few decades. This has resulted in the inclusion of parts of the Sharia in existing law, or the devolution of legal powers to local regions. Pakistan is an example of the latter. (see Wiki under Maududi). W hat used to called "tolerant" Indonesia now has a state where Sharia is enforced, as has Nigeria. Heard of Muslim patrols, or the Sharia police? They've got them in Saudi and they've now got them in Indonesia. (We had a few of them in Tower Hamlets, too, didn't we a few years back? Expect more). This increased religious conservatism is occurring everywhere and is bad (in no particular order) for: (a) all women; (b) all non-Muslims; (c) all gays. A point mad rather forcefully by Milo Yiannopoulos in the link I posted.
Do you think none of this is going to make your life less comfortable, SP? Did you know that 50% of Muslims interviewed in the recent Channel 4 Muslim attitude's survey said that homosexuality should be illegal? If this is true of the Muslim community as a whole (and knowing how fast that community is growing and knowing how good it is at getting its own way) I as a gay person would be worried.
Regarding the second question, well, Oscar Wilde did two years, didn't he. And, of course, most of us know about the disgraceful treatment of Turing. That shows how recently freedoms, now taken for granted, have been accorded the gays. You don't want these recent freedoms endangered, do you? Neither do I.
VE
One thing though that has popped out...that figure of 50% of British Muslims thinking that gay relationships should be made illegal is very interesting...
Think about fot a minute and you might come to the same conclusions as me.
If the same survey were to be carried out in Pakistan, Iran or Saudi Arabia - wouldn't the figure be much higher?
50% is way high, and mirrors the attitude to gay relationships that we had in the 1980. Except it was actually 70% of Britons who thought that gay relationships were wrong:
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Here's my theory and obviously I cannot prove it (only time will), as young Muslims grow up in an environment where gay relationships are accepted and celebrated, they will do the same as what happened to non-Muslims. They will start to reject the attitudes of their parents and grandparents. That 50% you mention is very likely a reflection of that, because as I mentioned before, had the survey been conducted in a much less liberal country - the figure would have been higher.
Young Muslims need to reject the bigotry of their elders. But that takes time. It took us 30 years.
One thing though that has popped out...that figure of 50% of British Muslims thinking that gay relationships should be made illegal is very interesting...
Think about fot a minute and you might come to the same conclusions as me.
If the same survey were to be carried out in Pakistan, Iran or Saudi Arabia - wouldn't the figure be much higher?
50% is way high, and mirrors the attitude to gay relationships that we had in the 1980. Except it was actually 70% of Britons who thought that gay relationships were wrong:
http://
Here's my theory and obviously I cannot prove it (only time will), as young Muslims grow up in an environment where gay relationships are accepted and celebrated, they will do the same as what happened to non-Muslims. They will start to reject the attitudes of their parents and grandparents. That 50% you mention is very likely a reflection of that, because as I mentioned before, had the survey been conducted in a much less liberal country - the figure would have been higher.
Young Muslims need to reject the bigotry of their elders. But that takes time. It took us 30 years.
One of my earliest thoughts after the initial shock, was could this guy be a suppressed homosexual? my thoughts seem to be not unfounded;
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Don't think your Muslim friends will be joining you at the parade anytime soon, sp. Guess it's all about how you word the questions.
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100% against homosexuality. Doesn't really get more conclusive, does it?
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100% against homosexuality. Doesn't really get more conclusive, does it?
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Multiple visits prior. It seems to me to be someone struggling to accept their own sexuality and trying to blow away the whole issue by killing others who have come to terms with theirs.
Multiple visits prior. It seems to me to be someone struggling to accept their own sexuality and trying to blow away the whole issue by killing others who have come to terms with theirs.
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