Religion & muslems

[keyvan]

There has been many heated debates here about religion and more specifically Islam. I would like to know when a reference is made to muslims, is that to the religion? People from a group of countries if so which countries? A race? etc, I would appreciate if you could specify your answer to these questions.

[keyvan]

No jonnythebosh my head is not in the sand as you think and if you had read my post correctly you would have noticed that I have already acknowledged the exercise of sharia law in certain countries. My question was that the inference that all followers of islam will abide by sharia law is totally baseless and untrue.

Oneeyedvic, You have said it quite eloguently. That is excatly the point I was trying to make earlier. The notion of extremism is encapsulated in leaders like George Bush that use religion to press ahead with his own agenda. And of course by doing so alienating the whole of the muslim world. They are not going to sit aside and let their countries be invaded by Americans just because Bush has had a "mission from god". George Bush sets America as a good example of christianity yet
There are no laws retricting the ownership of guns by people on street.
He went ahead with an illegal war with Iraq with no evidence of WMD killing many people in the process.
Supplying Israel with highly explosive materials to use against Lebanon.
Strict laws on gay marriage.
And the list carries on...

Which leaves some questions unanswered on moral obligation as a christian.



Coming back to my original question I asked here earlier it is quite clear that this war is imposed on the whole of the middle east where the majority of muslims come from. It is a war of ideology but quite frankly I find it quite scary to label all the followers of this religion as evil.

[jonnythebosh]

Keyvan, you have not read my answer, i do not claim all Muslims want Sharia law just that a significant number in this country do, i also said that some (not all) Muslim countries live under Sharia law.
One eye can waffle as much as he wants about the evils of christianity and i will agree with him because all religions are
bad news. But at the moment Islam is the one that is responsible for most of the troubles in the world at the moment.
As i have stated not all Muslims are trouble just some, here and abroad. I just wish the likes of One eye would read my replies before going into one of his rabid pro Islam stat attacks that have more to do with his rageing desire to be right on than being objective. To claim these things don't happen is frankly childish and unrealistic, but still he is called one eye.

[Oneeyedvic]

"One eye can waffle as much as he wants about the evils of Christianity " - the only reason I do this is to bring balance to your 'Islam is terrible' tirade. I do not think for one minute that Christianity is evil, just as I don't think that Islam is evil. Personally speaking I have had a 'Chrisitian' upbringing but I am agnostic bordering on atheist.

"But at the moment Islam is the one that is responsible for most of the troubles in the world" - obviously you did not bother reading my post / links - GW Bush (a CHRISTIAN leader who talks to God) is (imho) responsible for a lot more of the troubles in the world than Muslims - not just terrorist activites, but economical etc - but that is purely opinion.

"I just wish the likes of One eye would read my replies before going into one of his rabid pro Islam stat attacks that have more to do with his rageing desire to be right on than being objective. To claim these things don't happen is frankly childish and unrealistic, but still he is called one eye."

Maybe you could do the courtesy of reading my posts - where exactly have I said that these things don't happen? - was it when I said "Yes, there are atrocities that happen in the name of Islam," or was it when I said "Yes, there are people in the Muslim world who carry out terrible acts "

Maybe if YOU actually tried reading posts and links provided, you could actually (heaven forbid) educate yourself,

[Oneeyedvic]

WM - lets take your 'evidence' and replace Muslim with Christians:

1) They all stick to their own - anything from British holidaymakers though to the expats in Spain
2) How many apologies have you heard from TB about the WMDs?
3) So when the British went and colonized the world, they embraced all other cultures?
4) I am sure peace loving Buddhists have their doubts over GW Bush
5) If there are a hundred thousand Muslims who blow themselves up worldwide (and I really have no idea how many have) - that would be 0.006% of Muslims - I'd call that a minority.


I am however, totally with you on the integration issue. Muslims do not integrate as the Hindu, Sikhs, Jews etc have (though they all keep to their own as well). - and maybe its the quiet ones you need to watch ;-)

The trouble is that if Muslims are treated badly, then that will become a self-fulfilling prophecy

I honestly don't have an answer to that.

[jonnythebosh]

For christs sake (whoops) One eye all this business with Islam was started by Muslims not America.
The first attack on the twin towers was in 1993, the African embassies were attacked in (i think) the late 1990's, USS Cole was attacked around the same time. And then there was 9/11, then America took the gloves off and quite rightly so. Now i know that you and the lefty gang like to pretend that America launched an unprovoked attack on the Muslim world but for f**ks sake try being realistic.
If you lot could overcome your racsim about America and be objective about it and not paranoid and reactionary you would come to the conclusion that America was entitled to defend itself.
I would rather have them in our corner than against us.
It would seem that your attitude towards America is the same as the one you imply me of having towards Islam.

[jonnythebosh]

P.S One eye, try getting over the post colonial guilt complex, you'll feel better i promise.

[Oneeyedvic]

Glad to see you have the decency to apologise for your erroneous comments after they had been pointed out "To claim these things don't happen is frankly childish and unrealistic, but still he is called one eye."

Still, if it makes you feel better, just start your history in 1990. It then makes everything much easier doesn't it. I suppose to you it is irrelevant that America funded Osama Bin Laden (a terrorist then attacking the Soviets), supplied weapons to Iraq etc - after all this was before 1990.

Would you also like a discussion about Israel and the impact that American funding has had in the middle east? On no probably not - after all, it was established in 1947 - whilst Britain still had a colony.

And as to colonial guilt, why do you think I suffer from that? If it makes you feel better - I don't suffer from any sort of colonial guilt. I use the example as an illustration to a point (about people's behaviour) which I was making to Ward~Minter.

Maybe you could learn a little bit of history, realise that not everyone who disagrees with you is a bleeding heart liberal and realise than not all Muslims are bad people.

[keyvan]

It's quite hard for a lot of people to fathom that the cause of the problem in that region is very much the result of this government's foreign policy in that region.
The day that America will stop meddling with the affairs in that part of the world and start acting as an unbiased arbitrator in solving issues will see the day that fewer tension will exist between various factions, religious groups and countries in the middle east. Call this reactionary or paranoid since you have already come to that conclusion anyway but the reality is different. If certain countries in the middle east did not have the "oil" we would not be sitting here talking about politics of 'islam as an evil religion' or the 'war on terror'.