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Banning The Burka- Would It Work?
153 Answers
As there hasn't been a new thread on burkas in the last hour I wanted to seek opinions on one point.
One argument raised a few times which i can understand is that it is a symbol of oppression of women. I think it often is. Some say they are forced to wear it against their will , some say they want to wear it and we shouldn't deny that freedom. I suggested a poll of Muslim women would give us more info but the idea was dismissed as i was told we wouldn't know if they were lying.
So, if a ban were introduced would it stop oppression? Would these men who currently force/pressure them to wear it let them go out without one or would they force them to stay indoors so that other men can't see their faces (in which cases they'd be even more oppressed) . Or would the men let them go out but insist they still cover up in public and risk arrest?
Also, from a practical point of view, could it be policed if some people still wear them? If a woman gets on a bus wearing one would the driver be expected to stop and call the police if she refused to uncover her face? Would a shop assistant be expected torefuse to serve them and call security or the police?
Do we know how well it's worked in other countries?
One argument raised a few times which i can understand is that it is a symbol of oppression of women. I think it often is. Some say they are forced to wear it against their will , some say they want to wear it and we shouldn't deny that freedom. I suggested a poll of Muslim women would give us more info but the idea was dismissed as i was told we wouldn't know if they were lying.
So, if a ban were introduced would it stop oppression? Would these men who currently force/pressure them to wear it let them go out without one or would they force them to stay indoors so that other men can't see their faces (in which cases they'd be even more oppressed) . Or would the men let them go out but insist they still cover up in public and risk arrest?
Also, from a practical point of view, could it be policed if some people still wear them? If a woman gets on a bus wearing one would the driver be expected to stop and call the police if she refused to uncover her face? Would a shop assistant be expected torefuse to serve them and call security or the police?
Do we know how well it's worked in other countries?
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I still disagree on banning it in a public place for the sake of "banning the burka". We have a lot of freedom in this country. As long as what you wear does not outrage public decency, we have that personal freedom (although we didnt in medieval times because only certain people could wear certain fabrics). This is progressive. Once you start going down the road of taking away our freedom you encourage oppression. Bit by bit personal autonomy is eroded.
Are we to ban balaclavas, scarves (I will always wear a scarf across my face and glasses when walking in winter because my eyes and nose are very sensitive), bandana, thermal head coverings? What about those who work outside? What about a bride on her wedding day who wears a veil? And all those guest who wear hats with a veil?
Personally I find overweight men with questionable hygiene with tattoos and vest tops more offensive so lets ban those too. Or people wearing onesies to the supermarket. Or jeggings.
I do not think there is any correlation between the burka and crime - OK a few may have used it for nefarious reasons but that's no reason to ban it. Let's face it, we havent banned knives despite the fact that there are many stabbings and their only real place is in the kitchen (or in jobs and hobbies where they are necessary).
I have had clients who have worn face coverings. When I am dealing with evidence I have asked them if they would remove those coverings. I have asked politely and sensitively and kindly and explained the reason why. All have complied willingly and understood my reason for asking.
Are we to ban balaclavas, scarves (I will always wear a scarf across my face and glasses when walking in winter because my eyes and nose are very sensitive), bandana, thermal head coverings? What about those who work outside? What about a bride on her wedding day who wears a veil? And all those guest who wear hats with a veil?
Personally I find overweight men with questionable hygiene with tattoos and vest tops more offensive so lets ban those too. Or people wearing onesies to the supermarket. Or jeggings.
I do not think there is any correlation between the burka and crime - OK a few may have used it for nefarious reasons but that's no reason to ban it. Let's face it, we havent banned knives despite the fact that there are many stabbings and their only real place is in the kitchen (or in jobs and hobbies where they are necessary).
I have had clients who have worn face coverings. When I am dealing with evidence I have asked them if they would remove those coverings. I have asked politely and sensitively and kindly and explained the reason why. All have complied willingly and understood my reason for asking.
//Theland, immigrants throughout history have always lived in ghettos for the firs few generations and kept to their own culture//
And muslims have slowly taken over those same ghettos and cultures.
(naomi mentioned this earlier in another thread) Pakistan USED to be hindu, Lebannon USED to be Christian, Afhganistan USED to be Buddhist.
And for what its worth America USED to be native Indian.
And muslims have slowly taken over those same ghettos and cultures.
(naomi mentioned this earlier in another thread) Pakistan USED to be hindu, Lebannon USED to be Christian, Afhganistan USED to be Buddhist.
And for what its worth America USED to be native Indian.
"Let's face it, we havent banned knives.."
Yes we have, in public, BM.
"I have had clients who have worn face coverings. When I am dealing with evidence I have asked them if they would remove those coverings. I have asked politely and sensitively and kindly and explained the reason why. All have complied willingly and understood my reason for asking."
The thing is, BM, they should not need to be asked. We should not conduct business - especially legal business - in the UK with one of the parties masked up. Whatever their reason, women (assuming they are women) who expect this as a matter of course need education.
For their part the higher courts have not helped at all with the issue. There have been rulings that effectively leave the decision (whether to instruct a woman to unmask herself when participating in court proceedings) up to individual courts based on each individual set of circumstances. This should not be the case as it immediately opens up an avenue of challenge to the court's decision (if it goes against the woman's wishes). Nobody else would be allowed to participate in court proceedings masked up. I could not appear as a witness with a scarf wrapped round my face; the prosecutor could not stand up and address the Bench whilst wearing a balaclava with eye holes. They need to dress appropriately and so do women who insist on wearing unnecessary religious garb that conceals their faces.
Yes we have, in public, BM.
"I have had clients who have worn face coverings. When I am dealing with evidence I have asked them if they would remove those coverings. I have asked politely and sensitively and kindly and explained the reason why. All have complied willingly and understood my reason for asking."
The thing is, BM, they should not need to be asked. We should not conduct business - especially legal business - in the UK with one of the parties masked up. Whatever their reason, women (assuming they are women) who expect this as a matter of course need education.
For their part the higher courts have not helped at all with the issue. There have been rulings that effectively leave the decision (whether to instruct a woman to unmask herself when participating in court proceedings) up to individual courts based on each individual set of circumstances. This should not be the case as it immediately opens up an avenue of challenge to the court's decision (if it goes against the woman's wishes). Nobody else would be allowed to participate in court proceedings masked up. I could not appear as a witness with a scarf wrapped round my face; the prosecutor could not stand up and address the Bench whilst wearing a balaclava with eye holes. They need to dress appropriately and so do women who insist on wearing unnecessary religious garb that conceals their faces.
// (although we didnt in medieval times because only certain people could wear certain fabrics)//
These were called sumptuary laws
https:/
The Romans limited the amount and use of Tyrian Purple
and the Canterbury Tales are full of sly references to the pilgrims lack of compliance with the then sumptuary law
and in the 1620s if you had two sheets of expensive silk for your suit or dress - you slashed the top one and pulled thro the underlayer ( still v expensive) to show how rich you were. ( slashed fabric fashion)
sozza got bored christians rapping on about muslims customs(or not)
These were called sumptuary laws
https:/
The Romans limited the amount and use of Tyrian Purple
and the Canterbury Tales are full of sly references to the pilgrims lack of compliance with the then sumptuary law
and in the 1620s if you had two sheets of expensive silk for your suit or dress - you slashed the top one and pulled thro the underlayer ( still v expensive) to show how rich you were. ( slashed fabric fashion)
sozza got bored christians rapping on about muslims customs(or not)
Theland: "Kvaldir - Thank you. I hope this is a sign of mutual respect and good manners, which is the core strength of Answerbank."
That's Theland off my Christmas card list (and I thought we were getting along so nicely).
Don't trust any outfit political or otherwise which has "core strengths". When somebody starts talking to me about "core" anything, but most especially "values", I know he's selling me snake oil.
That's Theland off my Christmas card list (and I thought we were getting along so nicely).
Don't trust any outfit political or otherwise which has "core strengths". When somebody starts talking to me about "core" anything, but most especially "values", I know he's selling me snake oil.
To be fair wearing a Burka hasn't stopped this lady having fun on a beach
https:/
https:/
Let's address the central point of the OP - would it work?
Dunno, but Morocco has banned it. And for eighty years the veil (not just the dust-bin bag) disqualified you from public service (teachers, nurses, civil servants etc) in Turkey.
Second dunno is this: why would Muslim majority countries "discriminate" in this way against women who simply want to be "modest"?
Dunno, but Morocco has banned it. And for eighty years the veil (not just the dust-bin bag) disqualified you from public service (teachers, nurses, civil servants etc) in Turkey.
Second dunno is this: why would Muslim majority countries "discriminate" in this way against women who simply want to be "modest"?
>>>The idea of banning it in the UK is ludicrous.
People in the Western world have fought hard for the rights of women.
Recently in this country we celebrated the fight for the right for women to vote.
But now we have these people (men and women) who still want live in the middle ages and oppress women and for men to treat them as their slaves.
I think it is disgusting we have allowed so many of these people to come to this country and settle here with their awful historic attitudes.
I live on the edge of Birmingham and my town is beginning to be invaded by these people and I HATE it.
More and more women walking round my town in their "rags" with their faces covered.
While I think Boris was wrong to say what he did (only because it has wrecked his political career) I totally agree with what he says and would vote for a ban tomorrow.
These people's dress and attitudes is taking us back to medieval times.
People in the Western world have fought hard for the rights of women.
Recently in this country we celebrated the fight for the right for women to vote.
But now we have these people (men and women) who still want live in the middle ages and oppress women and for men to treat them as their slaves.
I think it is disgusting we have allowed so many of these people to come to this country and settle here with their awful historic attitudes.
I live on the edge of Birmingham and my town is beginning to be invaded by these people and I HATE it.
More and more women walking round my town in their "rags" with their faces covered.
While I think Boris was wrong to say what he did (only because it has wrecked his political career) I totally agree with what he says and would vote for a ban tomorrow.
These people's dress and attitudes is taking us back to medieval times.
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