Editor's Blog3 mins ago
Banning The Burka- Would It Work?
153 Answers
As there hasn't been a new thread on burkas in the last hour I wanted to seek opinions on one point.
One argument raised a few times which i can understand is that it is a symbol of oppression of women. I think it often is. Some say they are forced to wear it against their will , some say they want to wear it and we shouldn't deny that freedom. I suggested a poll of Muslim women would give us more info but the idea was dismissed as i was told we wouldn't know if they were lying.
So, if a ban were introduced would it stop oppression? Would these men who currently force/pressure them to wear it let them go out without one or would they force them to stay indoors so that other men can't see their faces (in which cases they'd be even more oppressed) . Or would the men let them go out but insist they still cover up in public and risk arrest?
Also, from a practical point of view, could it be policed if some people still wear them? If a woman gets on a bus wearing one would the driver be expected to stop and call the police if she refused to uncover her face? Would a shop assistant be expected torefuse to serve them and call security or the police?
Do we know how well it's worked in other countries?
One argument raised a few times which i can understand is that it is a symbol of oppression of women. I think it often is. Some say they are forced to wear it against their will , some say they want to wear it and we shouldn't deny that freedom. I suggested a poll of Muslim women would give us more info but the idea was dismissed as i was told we wouldn't know if they were lying.
So, if a ban were introduced would it stop oppression? Would these men who currently force/pressure them to wear it let them go out without one or would they force them to stay indoors so that other men can't see their faces (in which cases they'd be even more oppressed) . Or would the men let them go out but insist they still cover up in public and risk arrest?
Also, from a practical point of view, could it be policed if some people still wear them? If a woman gets on a bus wearing one would the driver be expected to stop and call the police if she refused to uncover her face? Would a shop assistant be expected torefuse to serve them and call security or the police?
Do we know how well it's worked in other countries?
Answers
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Did you ever open your spare room for Muslim asylum seekers?
Did you ever object to the threats from Muslims? Behead our troops?
Did you ever object to the numerous Muslim terrorist outrages?
Did you ever object to the child grooming gangs eg Rotheram?
Did you ever object to imams in Saudi funded mosques preaching jihad as they did two weeks before the Mannester Bomb?
I could go on.
Respond?
Did you ever object to the threats from Muslims? Behead our troops?
Did you ever object to the numerous Muslim terrorist outrages?
Did you ever object to the child grooming gangs eg Rotheram?
Did you ever object to imams in Saudi funded mosques preaching jihad as they did two weeks before the Mannester Bomb?
I could go on.
Respond?
-- answer removed --
-- answer removed --
Nailit - there is a time and a place. Someone outside on a cold day can quite safely wear a balaclava. Someone walking into a bank wearing one is naturally going to cause concern. I consider a partial ban "you must remove face covering items - ie helmets, burkas, balaclavas if you want to shop in here/pay money in here" is probably fair.
I do not see why we should ban it in a public place when there is no real security issue. Is it going to save 1000's of lives? No it isnt. Because those intent on savage slaughter wont give a stuff about what they are wearing (many of the atrocities we have seen on this island have not been perpetrated by those wearing a burka). They see no need in most cases to hide their identity since they know they are going to die anyway.
What this continual debate is doing is strengthening the argument that muslims are oppressed. Yes really. Those who want to push their ISIS led agenda and murdering intent must be absolutely killing themselves laughing that one of the things we get so wound up about is face covering though. Because all they do is walk in to a crowded arena with a nailbomb in a rucksack or drive a van through a crowded pedestrian area and you dont need a bit of material over your face to get away with that.
If we must ban the burqa we must also ban all other face covering in public.
I do not see why we should ban it in a public place when there is no real security issue. Is it going to save 1000's of lives? No it isnt. Because those intent on savage slaughter wont give a stuff about what they are wearing (many of the atrocities we have seen on this island have not been perpetrated by those wearing a burka). They see no need in most cases to hide their identity since they know they are going to die anyway.
What this continual debate is doing is strengthening the argument that muslims are oppressed. Yes really. Those who want to push their ISIS led agenda and murdering intent must be absolutely killing themselves laughing that one of the things we get so wound up about is face covering though. Because all they do is walk in to a crowded arena with a nailbomb in a rucksack or drive a van through a crowded pedestrian area and you dont need a bit of material over your face to get away with that.
If we must ban the burqa we must also ban all other face covering in public.
This is nothing like as clear cut an issue as some/many would think - in particular it is very simplistic to think those who wear burkas/niqabs are being instructed/forced to do so by overbearing/controlling male family members (husbands/fathers).
A Norwegian journalist has very recently written about an ethnic Somali family whose two daughters were raised in Norway and were completely integrated, slim jeans and all. The mother was the only one in the family of five (one brother in the middle) who did not integrate well and she started to "islamise" the two teenage girls, sending all the children to an imam for advice/instruction. They started wearing the niqab and then ran away to Turkey/Syria/ISIS. The father went looking for them within 3 days (which is where the journalist entered the situation) and ultimately ended up meeting them - they refused to return, already married. The brother says he doesn't want them back unless they reject the ISIS ideology and return to Norwegian ways, although their current whereabouts are unknown.
The niqab is sometimes adopted as a peer thing, to fit in with those the woman identifies with - other women possibly/probably form well over 50% of that grouping as all persuasions throughout the world. I have seen something like this first hand, the man of the house couldn't really care less but the woman did not want to be seen as or inferred as being of "lower" standard than the "rest". This is directly analogous to the way one sees people being determined to be seen as "good" Christians/Muslims/Jews/etc. by overtly displaying practice, although perhaps in private they are certainly not fervent believers.
A Norwegian journalist has very recently written about an ethnic Somali family whose two daughters were raised in Norway and were completely integrated, slim jeans and all. The mother was the only one in the family of five (one brother in the middle) who did not integrate well and she started to "islamise" the two teenage girls, sending all the children to an imam for advice/instruction. They started wearing the niqab and then ran away to Turkey/Syria/ISIS. The father went looking for them within 3 days (which is where the journalist entered the situation) and ultimately ended up meeting them - they refused to return, already married. The brother says he doesn't want them back unless they reject the ISIS ideology and return to Norwegian ways, although their current whereabouts are unknown.
The niqab is sometimes adopted as a peer thing, to fit in with those the woman identifies with - other women possibly/probably form well over 50% of that grouping as all persuasions throughout the world. I have seen something like this first hand, the man of the house couldn't really care less but the woman did not want to be seen as or inferred as being of "lower" standard than the "rest". This is directly analogous to the way one sees people being determined to be seen as "good" Christians/Muslims/Jews/etc. by overtly displaying practice, although perhaps in private they are certainly not fervent believers.
I don't know how many of you have been in Bradford on a Friday afternoon - but the sea of black-clad non-entities is really very unsettling and I'm going on my experience of 15 years ago, so it is probably worse now. The sense of alienation and unease is palpable - I urge you to try being there.
It is a lack of feeling comfortable in your own country and area where you grew up We didn't ask for this. My problem is that I feel that no-one should be told what to wear, but that a vastly growing number of women are wearing this separatist, alienating garb; so they are adversely affecting the rest of us. Should they be allowed to upset the majority? Seriously, just go into a Muslim area and feel the reality.
It is a lack of feeling comfortable in your own country and area where you grew up We didn't ask for this. My problem is that I feel that no-one should be told what to wear, but that a vastly growing number of women are wearing this separatist, alienating garb; so they are adversely affecting the rest of us. Should they be allowed to upset the majority? Seriously, just go into a Muslim area and feel the reality.
Did you ever open your spare room for Muslim asylum seekers?
No but I did have homeless people stay with us one of whom happened to be Muslim and yes I would happily take a Muslim family or individual into my home again.
Did you ever object to the threats from Muslims? Behead our troops?
I'm Jewish what do you think? I object to anyone being threatened by anyone especially on race, religious or cultural grounds.
Did you ever object to the numerous Muslim terrorist outrages?
Obviously like everyone else, including a lot of, oh wait, surprise surprise, decent Muslim people who also objected.
Did you ever object to the child grooming gangs eg Rotheram?
Yes, very, very loudly. That is a cultural issues which needs firmly addressing.
Did you ever object to imams in Saudi funded mosques preaching jihad as they did two weeks before the Mannester Bomb?
Yes, but what would you like me to do about men in Saudi Arabia? I have petitioned the Govt many times about it's continuing friendship with such an obnoxious state, can more be done by an individual?
I could go on.
Please don't.
No but I did have homeless people stay with us one of whom happened to be Muslim and yes I would happily take a Muslim family or individual into my home again.
Did you ever object to the threats from Muslims? Behead our troops?
I'm Jewish what do you think? I object to anyone being threatened by anyone especially on race, religious or cultural grounds.
Did you ever object to the numerous Muslim terrorist outrages?
Obviously like everyone else, including a lot of, oh wait, surprise surprise, decent Muslim people who also objected.
Did you ever object to the child grooming gangs eg Rotheram?
Yes, very, very loudly. That is a cultural issues which needs firmly addressing.
Did you ever object to imams in Saudi funded mosques preaching jihad as they did two weeks before the Mannester Bomb?
Yes, but what would you like me to do about men in Saudi Arabia? I have petitioned the Govt many times about it's continuing friendship with such an obnoxious state, can more be done by an individual?
I could go on.
Please don't.
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