If This Not A Full U-Turn...

[Khandro]

... is it at least a 90° one?   😃

 

https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2024/04/01/athiest-richard-dawkins-says-he-would-choose-christianity-over-islam-every-single-time/

[Atheist]

No, he hasn't.

[naomi24]

Khandro,  not at all.  He hasn't changed his mind.

 

[Khandro]

n. //He hasn't changed his mind.//

Then has he been getting very rich by conning you suckers all along? If I was you, I'd be asking for my money back. 😃

[Untitled]

i actually agree with khandro for once... the God Delusion does argue that biblical education is important for cultural heritage but it is very difficult to read that book and come away with the idea of being a "cultural christian"... he actually advocates for atheist identity and describes religion as an infection. 

[Peter Pedant]

ay think Dawkins has modified his views

when the facts change, I change my mind. what do you do? J.M.Keynes - countdown to deletion starts....

[naomi24]

Why do you think he's changed his mind, Khandro?  He's still saying religion is bunkum.  Do you actually understand what he's saying?  I think not.

[naomi24]

untitled, //it is very difficult to read that book and come away with the idea of being a "cultural christian"//

 

That isn't my experience.

[Peter Pedant]

Hi untittled, mornin' dont go on in that  fashion - or you are doomed. I am unused to Dawkins raving atheist saying- 'oh  well Christianity is not that bad' - but I am usually out on a limb

[Untitled]

you can't say religion is bunkum (ie nonsense) and then identify with it... the fact that you identify with it clearly suggests you think it has value of some sort. that isn't what he used to say. 

[naomi24]

untitled, He identifies with the culture - not with the belief.  Big difference - but one that appears to be eluding you and Khandro.

[Untitled]

i also don't think it makes any sense to call yourself a cultural christian if you reject christian spirituality... it's part and parcel of the same heritage. 

i am also an atheist but i think this "cultural christian" idea is rubbish... 

[Untitled]

but the belief can't be separated from "christian culture" naomi... i understand that you are trying to acknowledge that you come from a culture that was historically christian but the way dawkins is formulating it is completely inconsistent with his earlier works!!!

[Peter Pedant]

cultural christian - no I think it is OK as a sociological construct ( a what?)

You could  have a group of people who agree on various christian concepts - service to society, altruism, sacrifice, who agree that such people existed in the past ( saints, geddit?) and think their example is worth following ( intercessionary prayer, / ancestor worship take your pick)

easy peasy

set aside is  the one god or three or  none

[naomi24]

//but the belief can't be separated from "christian culture" //

 

Yes - it can.  Absolutely.  I post an annual thread here - the AB Carol Concert - and I do that because I live within a Christian culture.  I don't believe a word of the doctrine though.  Not one single word.  Dawkins thinks likewise.  You may say whatever suits you untitled, but I can't make you understand how someone else thinks.  

[Untitled]

 but that's the point.... dawkins treats christian culture like it boils down to liking christmas carols and admiring churches... but there is nothing generative in that idea of culture. A "cultural christian" who doesn't believe in christianity cannot make new christian art can they? or invent new christian traditions? it is stagnant and meaningless. it is not what a culture is.

[Untitled]

a "cultural christian" is left with nothing but tradition (christmas carols, simnel cake, whatever) for the sake of tradition. i don't deny the value of tradition but it isn't sufficient. you need core ideas and values and the most core christian value is the divinity of jesus 

[Ellipsis]

Using the Wikipedia definition, Cultural Christians are the nonreligious or non-practicing Christians who received Christian values and appreciate Christian culture. 

With that definition, a particular Muslim or Buddhist person can also be a cultural Christian, as can an atheist.

I don't really see in Dawkins' books that he appreciates Christian culture, but if he does appreciate Christian culture at the same time as saying that religion is a mind virus, a divisive force, a form of child abuse, subverting science, etc etc then he's lost his own plot.

[Khandro]

naomi; You say you like singing Christmas carols. So you must sing things like, 'O Come, All Ye Faithful'  in which is embedded the true Christian spirit.

Would you not say that you are being something of a hypocrite when doing this?

[naomi24]

Untitled,   //i don't deny the value of tradition//

 

Why is it a problem for you that others think similarly then?.

 

To 'need' more?  Why? 

 

Ellipsis, //With that definition, a particular Muslim or Buddhist person can also be a cultural Christian, as can an atheist.

 

Indeed.

 

//I don't really see in Dawkins' books that he appreciates Christian culture, but if he does appreciate Christian culture at the same time as saying that religion is a mind virus, a divisive force, a form of child abuse, subverting science, etc etc then he's lost his own plot.//

 

You appear to have lost your own plot.  In one breath you say that anyone who doesn't believe in the Christianity can be a cultural Christian and in the next that because that person is critical of the fundamental creed he has lost the plot - which contradicts what you said in the first place,  Doubtless any devout Buddhist or Muslim would be critical of the Christian creed.  If they took it seriously they wouldn't be Buddhist or Muslim - they would be Christian.

 

Khandro, //Would you not say that you are being something of a hypocrite when doing this[singing carols]?//

 

Not at all.  I'm a rotten singer but I like tradition.  In fact, believe it or not, I've raised thousands of pounds for our 14th century village church.

 

Why this is so difficult for all of you to grasp is beyond me. 

[Atheist]

Enjoying a sing-song doesn't mean that you regard the lyrics as 'gospel'. Would you refuse to sing Delilah, or I Shot the Sheriff, or Daddy Wouldn't Buy me a Bow-wow; just in case you might be accused of being a hypocrite bcause you didn't really mean the words you sang?